Nigel Farage MEP v Russell Brand - Question Time BBC1 22:35 *** Official Match Thread ***

[Dub-67]

And now you're being like Brand - not answering the question and instead twisting it around to corporate tax avoidance. Whether the government of the day collect tax dues or not the fact still remains that the population is growing - through birth rate and immigration. That means we have to control the numbers, improve infrastructure or do both. Nowt to do with big nasty bankers or tax avoidance. But of course you just wanted to make a political point that bears no relation to immigration.

Immigration is a side issue. A diversion. A diversion plotted by the very people who avoid tax.. in order to take the heat off of them.

"Let me tell you something. There was an economic crash and a lot of money was lost. His mates in the City farted; Nigel Farage is pointing at immigrants and the disabled and holding his nose. Immigrants are not causing the economic problems and suffering ..."

 

[sahel]

And now you're being like Brand - not answering the question and instead twisting it around to corporate tax avoidance. Whether the government of the day collect tax dues or not the fact still remains that the population is growing - through birth rate and immigration. That means we have to control the numbers, improve infrastructure or do both. Nowt to do with big nasty bankers or tax avoidance. But of course you just wanted to make a political point that bears no relation to immigration.

Yes but we talk endlessly about immigration - not much about what level of taxes we should pay or how we can stop tax evasion. If we invested properly in housing, education etc I don't think immigration would be an issue. It's just a lightening rod for all kinds of dissatisfaction because of other problems

 

[Hastings gull]

Originally Posted by sahel View Post



I thought the best points made last night were

1. Why do we go on and on about immigration. Why weren't we discussing tax evasion by individuals and companies which is much more important and salient

2. It is not immigrants that cause stresses and strains in housing education etc. It is lack of investment which is why point 1 was so relevant.

We are a low tax country and even then that tax is massively evaded. That is why we have poor public services and inadequate housing - it is not immigration - that is just an excuse and an easy target for populists like Farage

I know from previous posts that you have an obsession about taxes, and how people are dodging them. In this respect, you are quite right, but it is possible to be worried about this and immigration, you know. It is annoying that big corporations are seemingly getting away with it, though I doubt that this would be more of an issue for many folk than worries over what is widely perceived to be uncontrolled immigration, hence why this debate seems to take centre stage, even if you don't like it.
Your second point is way too simplistic -it might be a combination of the two, of course, but to say that immigration has had no effect on education/housing etc (note you didn't mention the NHS!) is a sweeping statement designed to lend a bit of credence to what you say. How can you possibly be in a position to make such a generalised comment?
As an aside, I would also think that whatever the government spends, most activists would say the service is under-funded.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Pound shop Enoch Powell?

That's the best you can do ? So you don't have an answer to the increasing population problem ? All you can do is throw around some two bit comment from a washed up 'comedian'. They are obviously right when they say most people have lost the power of debate.

 

[Dub-67]

That's the best you can do ? So you don't have an answer to the increasing population problem ? All you can do is throw around some two bit comment from a washed up 'comedian'. They are obviously right when they say most people have lost the power of debate.

Immigration is a side issue. A diversion. A diversion plotted by the very people who avoid tax.. in order to take the heat off of them.

"Let me tell you something. There was an economic crash and a lot of money was lost. His mates in the City farted; Nigel Farage is pointing at immigrants and the disabled and holding his nose. Immigrants are not causing the economic problems and suffering ..."

 

[pb21]

A number of interesting issues where aired last night, but the main theme for me was the disconnect between politicians and the public.

Seemingly the public have very little influence, yes we can vote, but all we can effectively vote for is two parties separated by no more than a cigarette paper.

Brand makes the point because he doesn’t vote, because he isn’t really voting when he does, it’s just a charade, we are given the appearance of voting, but as he said for what? Give me something to vote for and I will vote. Whether or not you agree with him on voting or not voting, its hard IMO to disagree with his sentiments for not voting.

However I separate myself from Brand’s opinions here, albeit subtly I think, in that I believe it’s not the politicians who don’t allow us to vote for anything significant, and no one in particular, but the ‘machine’ that has crept up silently. No party will ever get into power without the machines say so, therefore we are only offered limited options which suit the ‘machine’. I’m not sure exactly what this machine entails, but to some extant its decades, or centuries of the rich and powerful people and organisations. Its ideas have camped at the top of our society seemingly invisible yet IMO exerts its power over everyone.

People want politicians to do things they cant. Politicians probably want to do things they cant.

Maybe this isn’t bad thing, but I think it is. Debate is limited, certain things are out of bounds, other issues are forced. Politics becomes about the colour of your tie as this is the most polarising thing about them.

 

[Dub-67]

The media and the companies that control them have managed to convince the less intelligent sections of British society that the problems is immigration.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Immigration is a side issue. A diversion. A diversion plotted by the very people who avoid tax.. in order to take the heat off of them.

"Let me tell you something. There was an economic crash and a lot of money was lost. His mates in the City farted; Nigel Farage is pointing at immigrants and the disabled and holding his nose. Immigrants are not causing the economic problems and suffering ..."

You can quote Brand as much as you like - he didn't come out with a single suggestion on how to solve this country's problems. In fact when challenged to actually do something about it and stand, he became sheepish and defensive. If you're going to continually moan about how the system works, and you have the public window to deal with it, then stand up and deal with it. Brand can't and won't. Let's remember he advocates not voting ..... oh yes Russell, that will help !

 

[Dub-67]

You can quote Brand as much as you like - he didn't come out with a single suggestion on how to solve this country's problems. In fact when challenged to actually do something about it and stand, he became sheepish and defensive. If you're going to continually moan about how the system works, and you have the public window to deal with it, then stand up and deal with it. Brand can't and won't.

Yes he did... many times.. get the taxes from the corporations that dodge them.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The media and the companies that control them have managed to convince the less intelligent sections of British society that the problems is immigration.

And what makes YOU intelligent then ? What do YOU suggest is done to tackle the increasing population problem ?

 

[JCL666]

I would, however, be very wary of believing such stats as we all know what can be done with stats.

I've quoted just this one bit, because I think it's typical of the perception a lot of people have.

This is from UCL http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration

They are not a left/right pro/anti establishment. When they publish research it has to be able to stand up to criticism and analysis.

People like Farage are all about perception. They quote big headline numbers and cite exceptional cases, then hold them up to be the norm.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Yes he did... many times.. get the taxes from the corporations that dodge them.

FFS - money is not the answer to the problem of increasing population.

 

[Dub-67]

And what makes YOU intelligent then ? What do YOU suggest is done to tackle the increasing population problem ?

There isnt really a serious over population problem... there is a serious underfunding of resources problem... and that is down to tax avoidance by international corporations and bailouts to bankers.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

Thanks for your response. I am not disagreeing with your view that most people would not choose to change their view after debate on here, and I am sure you are right. Just not sure why you are even mentioning this, as I have not questioned that. It is quite possible to have a set view but NOT choose to back it up with sweeping statements which only serve to undermine that view - this is the essence of what I wrote. Again, I am not at all sure why you chose to introduce the left-right element - this is irrelevant as I made no such claim, and fully agree with you. You mentioned the brigade - it must be your hang-up that they are of whatever persuasion. Finally, you are quite right in that there are many factors at play regarding employment, but you chose to write the sweeping statement that immigration does not result in indigenous british unemployment -as you say there are many factors, so you cannot be so sure.
I am sure that there might have been such a programme, as you state, and if you say so. I would, however, be very wary of believing such stats as we all know what can be done with stats. If non-EU immigrants come from very poor counties with little or no medical provision, as we understand it, then it is most doubtful that they would use the NHS less than someone who has lived here all their life. I think I am right in saying that they tend to have bigger families - would this not have an effect on the NHS?

I introduced the left vs right notion to emphasise that the evasion of evidence wasn't political it was merely human. With the indication being that with political based threads such as these often become a case of left vs right. Of course statistics can be used to perpetuate any point of view but statistically speaking it goes to show that immigration isn't as big of an issue as people believe. Of course statistics don't apply to the indivual so there are, unfortunately, parts of the country where the strain is more telling on infrastructure. I reiterate my point on unemployment; immigration may be a factor (increased population size, more people applying for the same job etc) but I do not believe it to be the root cause or even the main cause of unemployment. I have no evidence to hand to back this theory up, just as people on the opposite side have no evidence to back up that immigration is the main cause for unemployment. But it stands to reason that the job market is an ever changing infrastructure that demands different skill sets at different times. As we've said there are many factors and immigration is perhaps one of them. Maybe this is because they are willing to do jobs others see as beneath them, low paid or because they willing to travel to parts of the country where the job market is currently lucrative. A factor yes, but take immigration away and give all jobs to British workers and unemployment will still remain as it not the sole cause as some people suggest.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

There isnt really a serious over population problem... there is a serious underfunding of resources problem... and that is down to tax avoidance by international corporations and bailouts to bankers.

A simplistic view if ever there was one.

 

[Dub-67]

A simplistic view if ever there was one.

it is pretty simple... we're all being shafted.

 

[Hastings gull]

Immigration is a side issue. A diversion. A diversion plotted by the very people who avoid tax.. in order to take the heat off of them.

"Let me tell you something. There was an economic crash and a lot of money was lost. His mates in the City farted; Nigel Farage is pointing at immigrants and the disabled and holding his nose. Immigrants are not causing the economic problems and suffering ..."

You don't seriously think that there is an inner ring of plotters sitting in a dark corner avoiding their taxes and agreeing to blame immigrants, do you? Your first sentence is really quite absurd - there is no obvious direct link, other than you want to see one, as it coincides with your bias. Immigration is not a diversion for many many people who fear for social cohesion in the future, if it is allowed to go unchecked. 40,000 people voted for UKIP in the three recent by-elections, rightly or wrongly - for them I think it is fair to claim that it is not a diversion as you so irresponsibly claim.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

I thought the best points made last night were

1. Why do we go on and on about immigration. Why weren't we discussing tax evasion by individuals and companies which is much more important and salient

2. It is not immigrants that cause stresses and strains in housing education etc. It is lack of investment which is why point 1 was so relevant.

We are a low tax country and even then that tax is massively evaded. That is why we have poor public services and inadequate housing - it is not immigration - that is just an excuse and an easy target for populists like Farage

Agree with point 1

Only partially agree with point 2 - it's a combination of lack of investment AND immigration. Anyone who says immigration has had no affect on services (housing, schools, hospitals etc. is IMO wrong.)

 

[spring hall convert]

Far from it... may have been the most decisive blow landed on Farage for years..

It is something a 5 year old would have thought up imo

I don't know which of these comments I despair of more. It was a decent soundbite, got a good reaction and will probably be the thing most people remember from the show. It's not going to change the world. Does Brand really wind you up that much US?

 

[Dub-67]

You don't seriously think that there is an inner ring of plotters sitting in a dark corner avoiding their taxes and agreeing to blame immigrants, do you? Your first sentence is really quite absurd - there is no obvious direct link, other than you want to see one, as it coincides with your bias. Immigration is not a diversion for many many people who fear for social cohesion in the future, if it is allowed to go unchecked. 40,000 people voted for UKIP in the three recent by-elections, rightly or wrongly - for them I think it is fair to claim that it is not a diversion as you so irresponsibly claim.

Yes I do. The Murdoch Press serves this agenda. You are naive if you think these people do not want to maintain their wealth and power at any cost.