Nigel Farage MEP v Russell Brand - Question Time BBC1 22:35 *** Official Match Thread ***

[Gwylan]

Brits living abroad are local tax payers regardless of being retired or not. In fact Spain benefits from pensioners spending their UK issued pensions in Spain.

But also loses out from the cost of providing healthcare

UKIP has stated people would not be thrown out of the UK. Controlled immigration for those applying in the future will be the way forwards.

Well, Mark Reckless said that EU citizens would be thrown out of the UK - which is what I meant by confusing messages. But that still ignores my main point: leaving the EU will not suddenly make the place "less over-crowded". And if we take into account, the additional controlled immigration ... and the possible return of expats, leaving the EU will do nothing to relieve that pressure.

I can plenty of advantages of leaving the EU, BTW, I just don't think it's a means to population control

 

[Dave the OAP]

Total drivel .....

You tried to imply that 'The anti immigration woman' was ignorant and undermine anyones view of the criminal consequence of immigration.

Bollocks did I. I explained why I challenged her point. If you can't see that then perhaps it's your problem Mr politician

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

I take your point that the economic crisis was not caused by immigration as such, though the stresses and strains on schools and hospitals in certain areas will be made worse if a struggling economy is unable to provide extra resources to combat a surge in population. I am sure that there are many cases where british folk just don't want to work for low wages and thus immigrants fill the vacuum, but on the other hand, I would be most reluctant to come to the conclusion that someone's inability to get a job isn't due to immigration. How can you be in a position to make such a claim? Many immigrants who come here, find employment, and work hard do undoubtedly contribute economically but the chances are that they will have paid into the NHS for a shorter period of time, yet lay the same claim to its facilities. I am not for one moment saying that they should not, just that this would thus put stress on the system's finances. As for your claim that people "don't want to know" , this is a very sweeping statement and, again, you can not possibly be in a position to make such a claim. The sweeping nature of your claims make me think, that you too would be as reluctant to see others' views.

Sweeping, yea but based on discussions on this very board. Most people (including myself) are set in a way of thinking and when the other side presents evidence to suggest that their assumptions or views maybe misguided they either ignore the evidence or try to discredit it. In the summer there was a program about immigration that showed statistically immigrants has little effect on the NHS (immigrants are statistically less likely to use the facilities provided)
, schools, welfare, unemployment and the economy. When this evidence was presented on NSC those who are anti immigration discredited it left right and centre because it put into question their view on the matter. It's not a left vs right issues, it's purely human nature. We were all saying before QT even aired that UKIpers would agree with whatever Farage said and "lefties" would agree with what Brand said and no one's opinion would really be changed.

As for my point about unemployment their are many factors as to why people can't find work but unemployment will happen regardless of immigration. It's not as simple as one immigrant gets a job so one british person loses out. The job market just doesn't work that way.

 

[Don Quixote]

I thought the Labour woman was very good, but maybe I am just biased in her favour being a leftist and all.

 

[sahel]

Rolling on the floor you may be but get up and consider this. In 2012 Germany had a total tax take of 37.6% of GDP, the UK has just 35.2%, That difference of 2.4% accounts for some 40 billion pounds of tax. And it has been the same for years. Denmark is 48% and Sweden 44%. 40 billion a year for say the last 25 years would have made quite a difference wouldn't it?

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

Do you really believe that? some throw away comment from a two bob 'comedian' who advocates people not to vote.

I agree, for me Brand has jumped on this bandwagon purely for self serving reasons and to shift a few more copies of his latest dvd and book. It is to get his name out there and after all with Xmas 2 weeks away was a great opportunity to generate sales for his " revolution " book. I am quite surprised he did not bring out a copy last night

 

[Dub-67]

I agree, for me Brand has jumped on this bandwagon purely for self serving reasons and to shift a few more copies of his latest dvd and book. It is to get his name out there and after all with Xmas 2 weeks away was a great opportunity to generate sales for his " revolution " book. I am quite surprised he did not bring out a copy last night

All profits from his book are going to various charities he supports.

"Farage is worse than stagnant, he is a tribute act, he is a nostalgic spasm for a Britain that never was; an infinite cricket green with no one from the colonies to raise the game, grammar schools on every corner and shamed women breastfeeding under giant parasols. "

https://www.facebook.com/RussellBrand/posts/10152569206828177

“Why are we talking about immigrants? It’s a side issue, this crisis was caused by financial negligence and the subsequent bail-out”

 

[turienzo's lovechild]

It is something a 5 year old would have thought up imo

loads of 5 year olds know who enoch powell is don't they

 

[Bold Seagull]

All profits from his book are going to various charities he supports.

"Farage is worse than stagnant, he is a tribute act, he is a nostalgic spasm for a Britain that never was; an infinite cricket green with no one from the colonies to raise the game, grammar schools on every corner and shamed women breastfeeding under giant parasols. "

https://www.facebook.com/RussellBrand/posts/10152569206828177

“Why are we talking about immigrants? It’s a side issue, this crisis was caused by financial negligence and the subsequent bail-out”

Can't disagree with what he's written there.

 

[5mins-from-amex]

Rolling on the floor you may be but get up and consider this. In 2012 Germany had a total tax take of 37.6% of GDP, the UK has just 35.2%, That difference of 2.4% accounts for some 40 billion pounds of tax. And it has been the same for years. Denmark is 48% and Sweden 44%. 40 billion a year for say the last 25 years would have made quite a difference wouldn't it?

What about the Tax on petrol? 61% highest in Europe, Alcohol, cigarettes 83%, Stamp duty, Vehicle Excise Duty, 12% of lottery revenues go to HM Treasury, Inheritance Tax (to biggest piss take of all) Insurance Premium Tax, Capital Gains Tax, we are Taxed a lot more than some realise.

 

[Yoda]

Yes - that was classic. It was given to support the view that confrontational politics does not always put people off.

That made me laugh, have just listened to it on iPlayer whilst working.

They go on about confrontational politics and all the snide remarks they make at fellow politicians putting people off voting and Farage continues to do so all the way through the show.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I thought the best points made last night were

1. Why do we go on and on about immigration. Why weren't we discussing tax evasion by individuals and companies which is much more important and salient

2. It is not immigrants that cause stresses and strains in housing education etc. It is lack of investment which is why point 1 was so relevant.

We are a low tax country and even then that tax is massively evaded. That is why we have poor public services and inadequate housing - it is not immigration - that is just an excuse and an easy target for populists like Farage

Putting political allegiance aside - surely it's both reasons ? i.e. more people ( be it through immigration, a higher birth rate or both ) means infrastructure needs improving and investing in. There are three solutions :

> Control the numbers
> Invest in infrastructure
> Do both

 

[Dub-67]

Putting political allegiance aside - surely it's both reasons ? i.e. more people ( be it through immigration, a higher birth rate or both ) means infrastructure needs improving and investing in. There are three solutions :

> Control the numbers
> Invest in infrastructure
> Do both

Stop Big Corporations dodging their taxes? They make money here but dont pay tax.

 

[sahel]

What about the Tax on petrol? 61% highest in Europe, Alcohol, cigarettes 83%, Stamp duty, Vehicle Excise Duty, 12% of lottery revenues go to HM Treasury, Inheritance Tax (to biggest piss take of all) Insurance Premium Tax, Capital Gains Tax, we are Taxed a lot more than some realise.

The figures I gave includes all taxes and they are OECD figures. We are actually taxed a lot less than most other developed countries - that is the point. You get what you

 

[daveinprague]

It is something a 5 year old would have thought up imo

....and the ONLY thing people will remember from the program in a couple of months.

 

[Hastings gull]

Sweeping, yea but based on discussions on this very board. Most people (including myself) are set in a way of thinking and when the other side presents evidence to suggest that their assumptions or views maybe misguided they either ignore the evidence or try to discredit it. In the summer there was a program about immigration that showed statistically immigrants has little effect on the NHS (immigrants are statistically less likely to use the facilities provided)
, schools, welfare, unemployment and the economy. When this evidence was presented on NSC those who are anti immigration discredited it left right and centre because it put into question their view on the matter. It's not a left vs right issues, it's purely human nature. We were all saying before QT even aired that UKIpers would agree with whatever Farage said and "lefties" would agree with what Brand said and no one's opinion would really be changed.

As for my point about unemployment their are many factors as to why people can't find work but unemployment will happen regardless of immigration. It's not as simple as one immigrant gets a job so one british person loses out. The job market just doesn't work that way.

Thanks for your response. I am not disagreeing with your view that most people would not choose to change their view after debate on here, and I am sure you are right. Just not sure why you are even mentioning this, as I have not questioned that. It is quite possible to have a set view but NOT choose to back it up with sweeping statements which only serve to undermine that view - this is the essence of what I wrote. Again, I am not at all sure why you chose to introduce the left-right element - this is irrelevant as I made no such claim, and fully agree with you. You mentioned the brigade - it must be your hang-up that they are of whatever persuasion. Finally, you are quite right in that there are many factors at play regarding employment, but you chose to write the sweeping statement that immigration does not result in indigenous british unemployment -as you say there are many factors, so you cannot be so sure.
I am sure that there might have been such a programme, as you state, and if you say so. I would, however, be very wary of believing such stats as we all know what can be done with stats. If non-EU immigrants come from very poor counties with little or no medical provision, as we understand it, then it is most doubtful that they would use the NHS less than someone who has lived here all their life. I think I am right in saying that they tend to have bigger families - would this not have an effect on the NHS?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Stop Big Corporations dodging their taxes? They make money here but dont pay tax.

And now you're being like Brand - not answering the question and instead twisting it around to corporate tax avoidance. Whether the government of the day collect tax dues or not the fact still remains that the population is growing - through birth rate and immigration. That means we have to control the numbers, improve infrastructure or do both. Nowt to do with big nasty bankers or tax avoidance. But of course you just wanted to make a political point that bears no relation to immigration.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

....and the ONLY thing people will remember from the program in a couple of months.

Maybe Dave but it was hardly the shattering blow to Farage some are making out. All in all I was disappointed in the event

 

[Dub-67]

And now you're being like Brand - not answering the question and instead twisting it around to corporate tax avoidance. Whether the government of the day collect tax dues or not the fact still remains that the population is growing - through birth rate and immigration. That means we have to control the numbers, improve infrastructure or do both. Nowt to do with big nasty bankers or tax avoidance. But of course you just wanted to make a political point that bears no relation to immigration.

Pound shop Enoch Powell?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

....and the ONLY thing people will remember from the program in a couple of months.

And yet it only makes the Daily Mail's fifth subheading on the subject ..... oh yes Dave, people are really going to remember it and it will stick .... only you really.