[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

[Peteinblack]

I can envisage a Farage-led Tory Party (which will move even further to the Right after Thursday) challenging Labour in 2029, and doing quite well on the back of voter disillusionment - encouraged by the Tory press - that a Starmer government has not really improved life for enough ordinary working people.

The Farage/Tory message will be "see, you gave Labour an opportunity, and they didn't deliver. Starmer is a puppet of the liberal Establishment. Now can you see that we need to be much more radical in tackling immigration, defending Englishness, and rolling-back-the-State, once and for all?"

The prospect frightens me.

 

[Peteinblack]

It's funny how when people disagree we use words such as "Stupid", "Selfish" and "Madness", when in fact all they are saying is Parliamentary seats should represent the will of the people.

My "stupid" view is that is fanatics and extremes don't get any voice their choice is to go underground or become more extreme, I thought we wanted a more fair and equitable society, or is that only if it fits with your agenda?

Serious question; how do you measure or reflect the "will of the people" when there are deep or widespread political differences and divisions?

For example, since 2016, Brexitters have been boasting that Leaving the EU was "the will of the people" - yet 48% of people (who voted) wanted to Remain; what about their "will"?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It's funny how when people disagree we use words such as "Stupid", "Selfish" and "Madness", when in fact all they are saying is Parliamentary seats should represent the will of the people.

My "stupid" view is that is fanatics and extremes don't get any voice their choice is to go underground or become more extreme, I thought we wanted a more fair and equitable society, or is that only if it fits with your agenda?

To be honest, yes I do want a society that fits my agenda. We all do.

My agenda is I don't want facists or Marxists in parliament. I don't care if that's fair or not.

And please don't tell me that it is facist to not wish to allow a platform for facists, and extreme to not give a voice to extremists.

And if I think that liberals inviting facists to the table is stupid, I'm happy to say it is stupid. It is stupid. Stupid.

As far as driving facists underground if we don't give them a platform, you could say the same about wife beaters and paedophiles, and it would be equally.....stupid.

And remember, I am not even demanding facists be made illegal (like paedophilia and wife beating). I am simply saying I don't want changes to the electoral system to give them seats in parliament. If that drives them 'underground' then good. They can f*** off underground and convert the slugs and worms to their doctrine. The can call themselves 'Refarm'.

 

[de la zouch]

I can envisage a Farage-led Tory Party (which will move even further to the Right after Thursday) challenging Labour in 2029, and doing quite well on the back of voter disillusionment - encouraged by the Tory press - that a Starmer government has not really improved life for enough ordinary working people.

The Farage/Tory message will be "see, you gave Labour an opportunity, and they didn't deliver. Starmer is a puppet of the liberal Establishment. Now can you see that we need to be much more radical in tackling immigration, defending Englishness, and rolling-back-the-State, once and for all?"

The prospect frightens me.

I think, unfortunately, you are correct. The Conservatives will lurch even further to the right and the loonies will be running that particular asylum.

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

Serious question; how do you measure or reflect the "will of the people" when there are deep or widespread political differences and divisions?

For example, since 2016, Brexitters have been boasting that Leaving the EU was "the will of the people" - yet 48% of people (who voted) wanted to Remain; what about their "will"?

I would say, for example, that Labour are predicted to get 40% of the vote in the UK, and will end up with 72% of seats in Parliament, whereas the Greens, for example, are predicted to have 6% of the vote and will have around less than .5% of seats, to me every vote should count, so we can get more people voting and more people believing their vote counts. The FPTP system doesn't reflect the outcome of the votes cast which is why Labour & Conservative will never for for PR.

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

I think, unfortunately, you are correct. The Conservatives will lurch even further to the right and the loonies will be running that particular asylum.

But why are the Lib Dems being so quiet on all of this, I'd have thought it was a perfect time for them to gather up the Conservative soft right.

 

[de la zouch]

The blatant racism and antisemitism that many of the Reform candidates are extolling is matched (almost identically) by their enemies on the Left, the Greens. The horseshoe phenomenon is unfortunately in full effect in this general election.

 

[de la zouch]

But why are the Lib Dems being so quiet on all of this, I'd have thought it was a perfect time for them to gather up the Conservative soft right.

I know, a massive opportunity to grab the centre ground. However there is a lack of political quality within their MPs so no one has grabbed this massive opportunity

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

To be honest, yes I do want a society that fits my agenda. We all do.

My agenda is I don't want facists or Marxists in parliament. I don't care if that's fair or not.

And please don't tell me that it is facist to not wish to allow a platform for facists, and extreme to not give a voice to extremists.

And if I think that liberals inviting facists to the table is stupid, I'm happy to say it is stupid. It is stupid. Stupid.

As far as driving facists underground if we don't give them a palatiform, you could say the same about wife beaters and paedophiles, and it would be equally.....stupid.

And remember, I am not even demanding facists be made illegal (like paedophilia and wife beating). I am simply saying I don't want changes to the electoral system to give them seats in parliament. If that drives them 'underground' then good. They can f*** off underground and convert the slugs and worms to their doctrine. The can call themselves 'Refarm'.

Wow ... wasn't quite going down the Paedophile route, my allow people a voice is because, whilst I wholeheartedly disagree with them, it does allow them to discuss their views and for people to counter them, rather than they spend their time converting the less educated, the evil, and the people who feed of this culture, underground and creating a web of hate we're unaware of. Fascism won't just disappear.

 

[nicko31]

The blatant racism and antisemitism that many of the Reform candidates are extolling is matched (almost identically) by their enemies on the Left, the Greens. The horseshoe phenomenon is unfortunately in full effect in this general election.

Yes Galloway Corbyn Farage all bedfellows in their unique way

Same in other countries, USA, France too

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I can envisage a Farage-led Tory Party (which will move even further to the Right after Thursday) challenging Labour in 2029, and doing quite well on the back of voter disillusionment - encouraged by the Tory press - that a Starmer government has not really improved life for enough ordinary working people.

The Farage/Tory message will be "see, you gave Labour an opportunity, and they didn't deliver. Starmer is a puppet of the liberal Establishment. Now can you see that we need to be much more radical in tackling immigration, defending Englishness, and rolling-back-the-State, once and for all?"

The prospect frightens me.

If the Tories were prepared to go against the wishes of their rank and file and defenestrate Johnson, I can hardly see them embracing Farage. And Farage won't want to do this anyway. He is making good money as a grifter. His Reform 'Party' is a private company owned by himself, and member fees god directly into his bank account. He isn't going to give that up in return for an actual job that requires actual work.

So I suspect your concerns will prove to be unfounded.

There may be mass Tory MP defection to Reform after the GE, but we are talking about what would be left of the current talentless shower, plus the more hairy-arsed element of the new intake (if there is one).

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

If the Tories were prepared to go against the wishes of their rank and file and defenestrate Johnson, I can hardly see them embracing Farage. And Farage won't want to do this anyway. He is making good money as a grifter. His Reform 'Party' is a private company owned by himself, and member fees god directly into his bank account. He isn't going to give that up in return for an actual job that requires actual work.

So I suspect your concerns will prove to be unfounded.

There may be mass Tory MP defection to Reform after the GE, but we are talking about what would be left of the current talentless shower, plus the more hairy-arsed element of the new intake (if there is one).

I think the absolute slapping the Tories are about to get will be the start of a Five Year rebuild, the establishment won't want them to disappear and the planning for this started way before the election was called. They know what's going to happen and may, in a perverse way, encourage the narrative that their over, as it may galvanize what "was" the rank and file.

 

[de la zouch]

The

If the Tories were prepared to go against the wishes of their rank and file and defenestrate Johnson, I can hardly see them embracing Farage. And Farage won't want to do this anyway. He is making good money as a grifter. His Reform 'Party' is a private company owned by himself, and member fees god directly into his bank account. He isn't going to give that up in return for an actual job that requires actual work.

So I suspect your concerns will prove to be unfounded.

There may be mass Tory MP defection to Reform after the GE, but we are talking about what would be left of the current talentless shower, plus the more hairy-arsed element of the new intake (if there is one).

Said ran

If the Tories were prepared to go against the wishes of their rank and file and defenestrate Johnson, I can hardly see them embracing Farage. And Farage won't want to do this anyway. He is making good money as a grifter. His Reform 'Party' is a private company owned by himself, and member fees god directly into his bank account. He isn't going to give that up in return for an actual job that requires actual work.

So I suspect your concerns will prove to be unfounded.

There may be mass Tory MP defection to Reform after the GE, but we are talking about what would be left of the current talentless shower, plus the more hairy-arsed element of the new intake (if there is one).

Said rank and file voted for Truss as leader, she made Boris look like a “wet” unfortunately anything is possible.
Let’s look on the bright side, at least we are not facing the choice between a man with severe dementia and a felon!!

 

[aolstudios]

The blatant racism and antisemitism that many of the Reform candidates are extolling is matched (almost identically) by their enemies on the Left, the Greens. The horseshoe phenomenon is unfortunately in full effect in this general election.

Well, exactly

 

[Baldseagull]

I have a hate of anything that gives Farage seats (and Galloway). That's all.

Yes. I am very happy that Farage and chums won't be getting 15% (around 70) seats. Very happy.

If you want the greens to have more seats then they need to become more popular so they get the biggest number of votes in more seats.

Some people imagine that PR and coalitions would create a more centrist government, Like in Germany. No. It would end up more like Israel.

And indeed the anti-FPTP lobby have been crowing about stable governments in Europe. Alas, we are looking at a lurch to extremism in Europe, facilitated by PR.

I would rather have a Tory government than a Tory-Reform-BNP coalition, or indeed a Labout-Green-CPGB-SWP coalition. They way to keep extremists at bay is to keep them out of parliament.

So if it is unfair that Farage does not get dozens of seats, then boo f***ing hoo. I am delighted. Thrilled in fact. Sometimes 'fairness' is nothing more than stupidity. I am quite angry, in fact, that selfish people who can't get their Green or Liberal people into parliament want to change the system to one that will let in lunatics, racists and traitors. Absolute madness.

They are already in there, hiding in the ranks of the Tory and Labour parties. Galloway and Farage have sympathisers within those parties, I would rather know who the ****s are, before they get elected into Parliament on a moderate manifesto.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Wow ... wasn't quite going down the Paedophile route, my allow people a voice is because, whilst I wholeheartedly disagree with them, it does allow them to discuss their views and for people to counter them, rather than they spend their time converting the less educated, the evil, and the people who feed of this culture, underground and creating a web of hate we're unaware of. Fascism won't just disappear.

Strictly speaking you are voting for a person and not a party. Indeed you might see an independent or two get in this time and it was how Martin Bell got elected.

While I agree with a lot of what Harry said, my fundamental opposition to PR is that it rejects Independents and great local candidates for the sake of a few more extreme cranks in Parliament. No thanks.

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

Strictly speaking you are voting for a person and not a party. Indeed you might see an independent or two get in this time and it was how Martin Bell got elected.

While I agree with a lot of what Harry said, my fundamental opposition to PR is that it rejects Independents and great local candidates for the sake of a few more extreme cranks in Parliament. No thanks.

Understand that, and maybe they'll be a way of accommodating this, not with strict PR, but that'll be a part of the debate I'm sure. That said, Labour are predicted to win 39.7% of the votes cast, which will see them with around 72% of the seats in Parliament, representative?

 

[Baldseagull]

I have no way of knowing it but I reckon if the referendum had been for another form of PR instead of AV, it would still have lost to FPTP. And if there had been several versions of PR, then FPTP would have been even further ahead.

Of course, a Labour government could re-run the referendum again ... and run the EU referendum at the same time.

Labour don't want to lose FPTP, half the votes they receive this election will be tactical, and due to FPTP.
I probably would prefer FPTP to PR, in returning an MP for each constituency, but I hate having to guess which way to cast my vote to not get a Tory, and would like to be able to select my preferred candidate, and an alternate if my preferred candidate is not well supported enough by others to be in the race.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Wow ... wasn't quite going down the Paedophile route, my allow people a voice is because, whilst I wholeheartedly disagree with them, it does allow them to discuss their views and for people to counter them, rather than they spend their time converting the less educated, the evil, and the people who feed of this culture, underground and creating a web of hate we're unaware of. Fascism won't just disappear.

I do apologize for getting aeriated. Maybe if we had time we might be able to reach some sort of agreement. I certainly don't subscribe to the Thatcher strategy of depriving the enemy (Sinn Fein) of 'the oxygen of publicity'. Farage is free to gob off as much as he likes (as long as he stays within the limits of the law). Ironically were he to become an MP he could use parliamentary privilege to defame and lie to the nation.

I agree that fascism won't just disappear. And what goes around comes around. But there is no evidence that forcing something underground inevitably makes it bigger. For example, there is a lot of chat about fox hunting still happening despite the ban. 'Forced underground'. This is correct but the number of foxes killed by hunts has fallen hugely. Most of the 400,000 foxes that are killed each year (to keep the population stable) used to be killed by hunts. The league for cruelty against animals reports currently maybe 600 illegal hunt events a year. Sounds terrible but if each event kills 3 foxes, that's 1,800. There would need to be more than 200 times as much illegal foxhunting for 'forcing it underground' to have made foxhunting worse. It has clearly not made it bigger.

I would also add that the 'web of hate we are unaware of' isn't such a bad thing if none of us are made aware of it. In any case, we would be very aware of it, as we already are, via the secret service. Fascism spreads via normalization, not by its suppression.

In any case our discussion was not about how to deal with fascism. It was about what the consequences would be of a 'fair' electoral system that gave Farage 70 seats. You still think Farage with 70 seats is preferable to underground fascism (or the overground fascism we have now, which is more likely if the status quo remains) and a price worth paying if we get 40 Liberals and 30 greens? OK. I don't. Let's leave it there.

I would imagine that we have a common view on 85% of issues. It's a bit sad that it is possible to disagree so fundamentally over the other 15%. Humans, eh?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

They are already in there, hiding in the ranks of the Tory and Labour parties. Galloway and Farage have sympathisers within those parties, I would rather know who the ****s are, before they get elected into Parliament on a moderate manifesto.

It is hard to legislate against lying. And what makes you think someone prepared to join the Tories under cover would flock to out himself and stand for reform just so that PR can convert him from a member of the Tory opposition to a member of the Reform opposition? And why would someone unprincipled become principled just because of PR?

Please correct me if my logic is flawed.