[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

[Guinness Boy]

I must admit that took a couple of goes to understand. Cavalier, use of commas, there, from, Jess, Phillips.

Yes, that’s definitely the most important issue here.

 

[rogersix]

It’s a grammatical nightmare.

but what about the content?

 

[Nobby]

It’s a run-on sentence with an unnecessary clause. Grammatically it is ugly. A 30 second rewrite would’ve made her message clearer.

Agree with her point, though.

I can just, see you standing, on the pavement, as the jackboots march, past moaning about the grammar ,

 

[schmunk]

I can just, see you standing, on the pavement, as the jackboots march, past moaning about the grammar ,

Full Stop At The End Off A Sentance; Ffs.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Full Stop At The End Off A Sentance; Ffs.

Of.

 

[abc]

Thank god for FPTP at this time on our history. We could’ve been looking at 93 Farage disciples in a growing, emboldened movement.

I used to be vehemently opposed to PR for this reason. There is a strong argument that Hitler would never have achieved power under FPTP. The most serious historians such as AJP Taylor argued that WW2 might never have happened on this basis.
However, I have argued more recently in favour of PR as we (as a society) have become more and more disillusioned with politicians of all colours and disconnected from politics altogether as more and more people don’t feel it is even worth voting.

We have a gov with a huge majority of seats that only got c 1/3 of the vote. Yet thankfully Farage and Reform got very few seats despite getting a large number of votes.

The unanswerable question is whether PR would have created a different political balance over the last 15 years that would have prevented the mess we find ourselves in or we would be in the same place now and thank god FPTP is limiting the power of those that seek to destroy our society.

 

[jcdenton08]

but what about the content?

Agree with it, Farage is a cretin.

 

[Theatre of Trees]

The unanswerable question is whether PR would have created a different political balance over the last 15 years that would have prevented the mess we find ourselves in or we would be in the same place now and thank god FPTP is limiting the power of those that seek to destroy our society.

FPTP tends to favour monolithic parties which are a broad church of views across right and left. The best example of this would be Blair and Corbyn being political bedfellows during the previous Labour administration. What PR tends to do is break these larger parties into smaller and more narrowly political units; the left tends to be split between those who are more social democratic in nature and those who are far more radical and ideological. The right would also follow a similar pattern, those who veer towards the centre, and those who are more nationalist and radical in outlook - the latter are currently occupied by Reform, whilst the former could be argued are now represented by the Lib Dems. Since Johnson's purge of the remainers the Conservatives have lost their position on the political spectrum as there is now no viable representative of that political position.

Consequently, what PR would give us is a lot more parties who would rarely ever achieve a full majority. The result would be coalitions. Looking at the percentage votes for 2017 and 2019 both results would have made it hard for the Conservatives to obtain a majority unless they did a deal with the Lib Dems and as the latter were totally against Brexit I doubt that would have happened. One caveat here is that UKIP or Reform did not contest these elections. On the other hand it would be possible for Labour to ally with Lib Dems, Greens and SNP to achieve an overall majority. However, another caveat is would these parties have worked with Corbyn? Given the radical left also opposed being part of the EU, would they have joined forces with pro Brexit side of the Conservatives in order to get things done. If we had gone down the PR route then I'd imagine any coalition would be based around pro or anti Brexit factions, and these may have made some very strange alliances, possibly Johnson and Corbyn joining forces to get Brexit done, then the latter bringing down the government on how they were going to do it.

The 2024 results would most likely result in a Labour-Lib Dem-Green government, Conservative-Reform and various Unionists just about scrape past the 40% mark. Coalitions between parties through a PR system can be flimsy and break, at least via FPTP where a monolithic party has full control there is better chance of a stable government over a longer period of time. Coalitions also depend who you have in them, a case in point is the current Israeli government under Netanhayu is currently kept in power by a couple of the more extreme right wing parties - the tail gets to wag the dog.

 

[Ooh it’s a corner]

Full Stop At The End Off A Sentance; Ffs.

Of.

I suspect @schmunk’s errors were deliberate Shirley - sentence and random capitals etc

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I suspect @schmunk’s errors were deliberate Shirley - sentence and random capitals etc

So do I, but it's part of the fun, isn't it?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

FPTP tends to favour monolithic parties which are a broad church of views across right and left. The best example of this would be Blair and Corbyn being political bedfellows during the previous Labour administration. What PR tends to do is break these larger parties into smaller and more narrowly political units; the left tends to be split between those who are more social democratic in nature and those who are far more radical and ideological. The right would also follow a similar pattern, those who veer towards the centre, and those who are more nationalist and radical in outlook - the latter are currently occupied by Reform, whilst the former could be argued are now represented by the Lib Dems. Since Johnson's purge of the remainers the Conservatives have lost their position on the political spectrum as there is now no viable representative of that political position.

Consequently, what PR would give us is a lot more parties who would rarely ever achieve a full majority. The result would be coalitions. Looking at the percentage votes for 2017 and 2019 both results would have made it hard for the Conservatives to obtain a majority unless they did a deal with the Lib Dems and as the latter were totally against Brexit I doubt that would have happened. One caveat here is that UKIP or Reform did not contest these elections. On the other hand it would be possible for Labour to ally with Lib Dems, Greens and SNP to achieve an overall majority. However, another caveat is would these parties have worked with Corbyn? Given the radical left also opposed being part of the EU, would they have joined forces with pro Brexit side of the Conservatives in order to get things done. If we had gone down the PR route then I'd imagine any coalition would be based around pro or anti Brexit factions, and these may have made some very strange alliances, possibly Johnson and Corbyn joining forces to get Brexit done, then the latter bringing down the government on how they were going to do it.

The 2024 results would most likely result in a Labour-Lib Dem-Green government, Conservative-Reform and various Unionists just about scrape past the 40% mark. Coalitions between parties through a PR system can be flimsy and break, at least via FPTP where a monolithic party has full control there is better chance of a stable government over a longer period of time. Coalitions also depend who you have in them, a case in point is the current Israeli government under Netanhayu is currently kept in power by a couple of the more extreme right wing parties - the tail gets to wag the dog.

That's a very eloquent description of my precise position.

And you (correctly) did not mention 'fairness' or 'wasted vote' once. Chapeau.

 

[Right Brain Ronnie]

It’s a grammatical nightmare.

If she's a dyslexic, I will let her off. If she isn't she should sort out her life.

 

[schmunk]

If she's a dyslexic, I will let her off. If she isn't she should sort out her life.

...is exactly what someone who has dyslexia (like you claim to) would NOT say.

The sooner this twat persona goes away the better.

 

[Right Brain Ronnie]

A grammar war on a Farage thread.

...is exactly what someone who has dyslexia (like you claim to) would NOT say.

The sooner this twat persona goes away the better.

Do you have dyslexia? Unless you do you really can't know what I'd say.
Perhaps you and a few others for some reason weirdly want to believe differently, that is very odd to me.
What's your view on Farage and reform, do you feel they are going to help Britain get back to the unity it once was?

 

[Theatre of Trees]

That's a very eloquent description of my precise position.

And you (correctly) did not mention 'fairness' or 'wasted vote' once. Chapeau.

There are pros and cons for each system - if I was to change the UK political system I'd keep FPTP for the Commons and use PR to elect an upper chamber - you keep the constituency aspect which I have always liked, and also allow an elected upper chamber to operate without overwhelming majorities, in other words parties would need to make alliances depending on the legislation and thus get a say in how they are shaped.

 

[schmunk]

A grammar war on a Farage thread.

Do you have dyslexia? Unless you do you really can't know what I'd say.
Perhaps you and a few others for some reason weirdly want to believe differently, that is very odd to me.
What's your view on Farage and reform, do you feel they are going to help Britain get back to the unity it once was?

I don't, but my wife does. Maybe she's just kind and thoughtful.

Farage and Reform are, as you fully well know, hugely divisive and will never serve to unite Britain. That's their M.O.

 

[WATFORD zero]

...is exactly what someone who has dyslexia (like you claim to) would NOT say.

The sooner this twat persona goes away the better.

I believe that I know who else this 'persona' posts as/has posted as, but I'm sure the mods are well ahead of me given their recent responses. I simply hope that when it's concluded, it's done very publicly naming the other accounts.

Because it is the single nastiest episode I have seen on NSC in well over 20 years

 

[Molango's visa]

I used to be vehemently opposed to PR for this reason. There is a strong argument that Hitler would never have achieved power under FPTP. The most serious historians such as AJP Taylor argued that WW2 might never have happened on this basis.
However, I have argued more recently in favour of PR as we (as a society) have become more and more disillusioned with politicians of all colours and disconnected from politics altogether as more and more people don’t feel it is even worth voting.

We have a gov with a huge majority of seats that only got c 1/3 of the vote. Yet thankfully Farage and Reform got very few seats despite getting a large number of votes.

The unanswerable question is whether PR would have created a different political balance over the last 15 years that would have prevented the mess we find ourselves in or we would be in the same place now and thank god FPTP is limiting the power of those that seek to destroy our society.

Who cares about the unanswerable question? We don't have 93 Farage wankpuffins. Isn't that enough?

 

[Right Brain Ronnie]

I don't, but my wife does. Maybe she's just kind and thoughtful.

Farage and Reform are, as you fully well know, hugely divisive and will never serve to unite Britain. That's their M.O.

Your wife is a wonderful person.
Farage see things way way before most and called the trouble that mass immigration would cause, he wasn't wrong was he?

The balance has tipped and people are scared and had enough. He didn't get 14% and 4 million votes by Chance in such a short time.

 

[Molango's visa]

If she's a dyslexic, I will let her off. If she isn't she should sort out her life.

Oh, do f*** off. You pompous oik.