[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

[WATFORD zero]

Sorry I missread.

When you wrote "I believe any step we can take to help create the environment for a two state solution will be good thing, no matter how small". I skimmed over 'the environment for'. You perhaps should have added 'initial discussions about' to avoid neurodiverse types like myself quibbling. Anyway, let's quibble a bit more.....

Presently Israel (well, Bibi) is not interested in a two state solution. So the process that must happen (in reverse order) is this:

Create a two state solution
Get Israel and Palestine to agree a two state solution
Get Israel and Palestine to agree to a permanent ceasefire
Get Israel and Palestine to meet to discuss the creation of a permanent ceasefire

So I am having trouble working out where to fit this in:

Get Israel to agree to recognize Palestine as a legitimate independent state

This would need to be the very first thing (at the bottom of my list) surely, in order for the UK recognizing Palestine as a legitimate independent state to have any relevance? Otherwise why bother? I may be wrong but I do not see this as being remotely in the minds of Israel (Bibi and the opposition parties) whose number one imperative right now is to free Israeli hostages (and arguably do massive amounts of smiting). So there is a danger that the UK recognizing Palestine now may be an irrelevance at best, and something else to annoy Israel about at worst.

I am happy to be corrected, as it 'feels' to me like a 'good' thing to do to 'recognize' Palestine, but I would advocate it (and agitate for it) only if it will have only positive consequences.

To add to my 'it may not be as simple as that' narrative, I recall how Corbyn and others promoted Irish Nationalism in Ulster during 'the troubles' (something for which many NSC readers, especially ex-service people, will never forget or forgive). Form afar it may seem that recognizing the legitimacy of a united Ireland (how ironic that the call from Corbyn-left was for a one nation solution in that conflict) was a noble gesture in pursuit of peace. In fact it was irrelevant and potentially dangerous. Unknown to Corbyn, the IRA signalled an end to hostilities when they contact HMG secret service with the message "The war is over". The Major government had started negotiations - albeit rather uncomfortably - and these were taken to a new level by Blair, eventually resulting in the peace process. There was no 'recognition' of a 'united Ireland' state. Corbyn meeting the IRA after the Brighton bombing years earlier may have been well-intentioned, but now it looks crass. And it certainly played no role in the eventual resolution.

So.....maybe lots of nations unilaterally recognizing Palestine may do no harm. Recognizing the Turkish republic of North Cyprus (we don't) is another example. But I fear that unilaterally recognizing Palestine may do more harm than good. I don't know for sure, so I can't immediately agree with you 'every little bit helps' perspective. I am not a diplomat and don't understand diplomacy so I may be wrong.

I'm so tempted to TL.DR

But seriously, the more countries that actually recognise Palestine as a state, the more pressure is put on Israel to stop the current killing and negotiate a two state solution. I'm sure that's what every sensible person wants but can't be achieved all the time it is claimed that there aren't two states. There's currently north of 140 countries recognise two states, it's rising constantly and the UK aren't one of them.

I understand the reasons that the UK and America don't want to recognise a Palestinian state, but those reasons are from over 70 years ago and tens of thousands of innocents have died just in the last year alone, so personally I can't justify what we did 70 years ago as a reason.

Is it really that bigger issue for the UK to recognise the state of palestine and take a tiny step towards stopping the current slaughter

I thought you always claimed not to be led by political dogma and would always base your opinions on what is actually happening. And trust me, what is happening on a daily basis is not good and we should all do anything we can to help

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'm so tempted to TL.DR

But seriously, the more countries that actually recognise Palestine as a state, the more pressure is put on Israel to stop the current killing and negotiate a two state solution. I'm sure that's what every sensible person wants but can't be achieved all the time it is claimed that there aren't two states. There's currently north of 140 countries recognise two states, it's rising constantly and the UK aren't one of them.

I understand the reasons that the UK and America don't want to recognise a Palestinian state, but those reasons are from over 70 years ago and tens of thousands of innocents have died just in the last year alone, so personally I can't justify what we did 70 years ago as a reason.

Is it really that bigger issue for the UK to recognise the state of palestine and take a tiny step towards stopping the current slaughter

I thought you always claimed not to be led by political dogma and would always base your opinions on what is actually happening. And trust me, what is happening on a daily basis is not good and we should all do anything we can to help

I agree.

But I am not going to not support Labour because Starmer was slow to call for this when in opposition. Like some apparently claim they have done.

Nuance.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I agree.

But I am not doing to not support Labour because Starmer was slow to call for this when in opposition. Like some apparently claim they have done.

Nuance.

To be fair, he has a lot on his plate, but his first couple of days with Rwanda, the appointment of Timpson, Streeting's negotiations, etc seem impressive, almost like he had a plan all along

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

To be fair, he has a lot on his plate, but his first couple of days with Rwanda, the appointment of Timpson, Streeting's negotiations, etc seem impressive, almost like he had a plan all along

Indeed.

 

[Blackadder]

Probably already posted but....

 

[HillBarnTillIDie]

I am not racist against any creed or colour but am slightly nationalistic. I want people to come to my Country, whether Black, white yellow or orange. But, I really want you to assimilate to my countries beliefs. Does that make me wrong?

No I don’t think it does.
However “Beliefs” is probably the wrong word.
I would expect the very least to abide by the law and show a willingness to contribute, which Im sure many do…

 

[Guinness Boy]

I am not racist against any creed or colour but am slightly nationalistic. I want people to come to my Country, whether Black, white yellow or orange. But, I really want you to assimilate to my countries beliefs. Does that make me wrong?

They could start by queuing properly and taking their assigned seat at any sporting match they attend

 

[Eric the meek]

To be fair, he has a lot on his plate, but his first couple of days with Rwanda, the appointment of Timpson, Streeting's negotiations, etc seem impressive, almost like he had a plan all along

Pah !

Boris still managed to have a decent social life despite being PM.
Scrapping Rwanda = kneejerk reversal of a sensible, measured deterrent with free transport to a safe country.
Timpson = outsourcing the prison service. Set them all free. What they need is love.
Streeting's negotiations = give the doctors whatever they want.

I rest my case.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Pah !

Boris still managed to have a decent social life despite being PM.
Scrapping Rwanda = kneejerk reversal of a sensible, measured deterrent with free transport to a safe country.
Timpson = outsourcing the prison service. Set them all free. What they need is love.
Streeting's negotiations = give the doctors whatever they want.

I rest my case.

I can't be arsed to look it up, but I do wonder how many blatant lies Johnson told in his first two days in office, setting the scene completely for the last 5 years

 

[Springal]

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Pah !

Boris still managed to have a decent social life despite being PM.
Scrapping Rwanda = kneejerk reversal of a sensible, measured deterrent with free transport to a safe country.
Timpson = outsourcing the prison service. Set them all free. What they need is love.
Streeting's negotiations = give the doctors whatever they want.

I rest my case.

Is this an attempt at comedy? If so, it isn't very good

 

[Eric the meek]

I can't be arsed to look it up, but I do wonder how many blatant lies Johnson told in his first two days in office, setting the scene completely for the last 5 years

Indeed. The PM sets the tone. I can't help comparing the tone Starmer has already set, with whatever Boris set.

 

[Eric the meek]

Is this an attempt at comedy? If so, it isn't very good

It was HWT. Some comedy works, some doesn't. That didn't.

 

[ROSM]

It is impossible to 'out farage', farage. The tories have tried for at least 10 years and all it does is embolden him (and the media) that he is right

When this has happened in the past, the way to deal with it is to take away the reasons why people were so disenchanted that they voted for him.

If waiting lists went down and jobs and housing were more available and people got the social care they needed, then the call to move to a US style health service and kick out the immigrants would dissipate for the many. There will still be racists who will vote for him but the Tories can have them too.

But let's remember that labour, lib dems and greens got c54% of the vote. Tories and reform got 37%. That's quite a centre to left majority. Even if reform votes had been added to Tories they would still have lost 80 seats and labour would have been the largest party maybe still with a majority (think c8 to 14 seats).

There is a reason why health, prisons and housing and so high up the first 100 days agenda

 

[Guinness Boy]

Here’s the original report.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I have literally just been reading the article about the phantom Reform candidates (some with no online presence at all).

 

[TomandJerry]

Richard Tice, the newly elected Reform MP for Boston and Skegness, has said his party will become “the real opposition” and has the policies – such as on immigration and law and order – that “will save this country”. Tice, who is also the party’s chairman, overturned a 25,000 Conservative majority to win the seat for Reform.

 

[Eeyore]

Here’s the original report.

Folk told me off for voting Larry the Cat at the election. At least I voted for a sentient being of physical matter.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I have literally just been reading the article about the phantom Reform candidates (some with no online presence at all).

It will be interesting to find out who these Reform candidates are who, it appears, have never been loud and proud all over social media

 

[Peteinblack]

It is impossible to 'out farage', farage. The tories have tried for at least 10 years and all it does is embolden him (and the media) that he is right

When this has happened in the past, the way to deal with it is to take away the reasons why people were so disenchanted that they voted for him.

If waiting lists went down and jobs and housing were more available and people got the social care they needed, then the call to move to a US style health service and kick out the immigrants would dissipate for the many. There will still be racists who will vote for him but the Tories can have them too.

But let's remember that labour, lib dems and greens got c54% of the vote. Tories and reform got 37%. That's quite a centre to left majority. Even if reform votes had been added to Tories they would still have lost 80 seats and labour would have been the largest party maybe still with a majority (think c8 to 14 seats).

There is a reason why health, prisons and housing and so high up the first 100 days agenda

Spot-on. This has been my take on Reform UK also.

Two sources of support; a) out-and-out racists, who are beneath contempt and beyond redemption b) people justifiably aggrieved at waiting for an NHS operation, unable to get an affordable home, their children in over-crowded classrooms, etc, and who lash-out by blaming immigrants.

If Labour can tackle these problems - no easy feat, I agree - then I think a lot of support for Reform UK will dissipate.

The other point is that people will be able to see how well the 5 Reform UK MPs serve their constituents when asked to tackle day-to-day local problems. I've said before, Farage is not going to enjoy spending weekends in Clacton dealing with local complaints about pot-holes, bin collections, nuisance neighbours, etc, when he'd rather be in Florida playing golf with Trump.

We'll also be able to see how Farage votes on legislation intended to benefit ordinary working people, such as improved employment protection, or more protection for renters; as Farage is a rabid Thatcherite, he'll probably vote against such measures. Labour should therefore 'flush out' Farage by showing Reform UK voters that he definitely does not have their interests at heart.