Compared with the mugs who look likely to actually succeed, Starmer comes across as a complete outsider.
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[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party
- Thread starter Bulldog
- Start date
Compared with the mugs who look likely to actually succeed, Starmer comes across as a complete outsider.
Lower West Stander
Well-known member
Indeed. I have been reading JRG and, although I disagree that the new left labour will save the day, I like his posts, but things really are not simply a case of everything in every way is getting better and better. Or worse.....
Consider, my dad worked in the same job for 40 years, had to save 8 years to buy his first house, wait 5 years to start a family, and save for another 5 years to buy a proper 3 bedroom semi. He never had spare cash and we had working class food, values and lifestyles.
I was the first in the family to go to university, and ended up with a PhD and a job in academia. Middle class! I bought a house inferior to the one I grew up in, and still live in it. My life experience has been broad and varied. I seem to have benefitted from a golden age - full student grant, incredible opportunity....
My son didn't finish school, and has pursued a dream of being a musician. Now in his 30s, he has a low income job and no chance of getting on the property ladder.
Is any of this the fault of capitalism, and something that could be fixed by socialism? I have no idea but suspect the answer is 'no'. But....we will never know.
I hope labour comes to it's senses and realises that to be elected requires compromise with the electorate. Unfortunately being singed up to the Corbyn way seems to be a prerequisite for getting on the ballot right now, so we may as well kiss the next decade fondly goodbye and hand it to Boris, because the public won't vote for it in sufficient numbers....
Hampster Gull
Well-known member
- Dec 22, 2010
- 13,465
Agree. We are absolutely better off than 100 years ago, 200 years ago etc. Of course there is relative wealth discrepancy and a distribution curve, with some suffering. But I’m delighted to be alive now than in any other time. Still yet to see a self-declared socialist state do better.
It’s so sad that pragmatism will be such a small part of Labour member’s methodology in choosing a new leader. It’s all about idealism and if someone like RLB or Clive Lewis gets picked, Boris may as well have his 2024 election winning party right now.
Dan ‘Johnson-Killer’ Jarvis would get a majority bigger than Johnson’s but will the party pick an electable leader? Not a chance. Idiots.
Dan ‘Johnson-Killer’ Jarvis would get a majority bigger than Johnson’s but will the party pick an electable leader? Not a chance. Idiots.
Under 40s in the UK, US and elsewhere in the western world are better off than their parents' generation?
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,014
thats sad you feel that way. sure some indivuduals are not always going to better off, its about wider population being richer, and not just in raw money but general well being and standard of living. my parents and grandparents knew out door toilets, no central heating, common ailments that killed family and friends. the older generation lived with actual austerity permenantly, mothers worked in the home, and they really did work, there was no universal credit only some meager means tested handouts.
maybe those from the 60s will tell grandchildren it's worse, relatively to their growing up, overlooking all the advancement and improvments to living standards. we didnt get here through Marxism, though the Labour movement has certainly helped along the way, and we simply dont live in the 19th century any more. capitialism and market economy has given us so much advancement in a very short time, the counter argument that a socialist utopia would do better is either proven false or a theoretical exercise.
Suffering?! Oh do fxxkin behave. At least one of your kids is a school teacher if I recall correctly. Maybe not quite having the life of Riley that they used to have, but suffering? Please........
- Jan 3, 2012
- 17,348
My wife was in education. One of the in-laws is a teacher. If you take it seriously , which they did/do, it’s far from the life of Riley. You need your f@&£ing head examining
David, he didn’t suggest flat all that their they have the LOR, he’s suggesting that the word “suffering “ might be an incy bit over the top.
I wonder what answers your grandparents would have given you.
Of course things aren't perfect and they never will be, but it is undeniable that huge progress has been made in society in so many ways over the last, say, 100 years.
My grandparernts were born in Scotland in the 1880's and by God, from what I learned from them, life is a lot better now for the vast majority of people in this country.
Capitalism for all its faults has bought enormous benefits and progress to millions including public sector workers!
My late father and mother were public sector workers (doctor and nurse) as was my sister(teacher) and as is a cousin(nurse), who is still working. I am sorry to hear your relatives are suffering; mine must be luckier.They had/ have never experienced redundancy or job insecurity and had/have pension benefits many in the private sector could only dream of.
P.S.My eldest son is a teacher and he isn't 'suffering' either!
Last edited:
- Jan 3, 2012
- 17,348
Fair enough, but I would say that anybody working in the public sector is suffering at the moment, particularly if they care about what they are doing. Austerity, budget cuts, being slated (up to now, but Boris is obviously going to change all that) by a succession of stupid Tory ministers, particularly in education and the Health service. The various members of my family are a recently retired wife in sixth-form education, a daughter working for the Welsh Assembly now but until recently for Newport City Council, her partner a customs officer, other daughter a doctor, and her partner a teacher. All have in recent years have had some experience of mental Health problems, stress and so on because of being expected constantly to do more with (much) less and being treated like dog dirt by the ministers overseeing their particular area - Michael Gove as Education Secretary, for example, was an abomination.
So maybe I did mean suffered!
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
FACT - this generation (the generation of my children) is the first generation under capitalism that is going to be worse off than its parents -
https://www.ft.com/content/81343d9e-187b-11e8-9e9c-25c814761640
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/14/economics-viewpoint-baby-boomers-generation-x-generation-rent-gig-economy
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/18/children-born-1980s-become-first-generation-worse-predecessors/
https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-uk-first-generation-1800s-do-worse-than-parents-resolution-foundation-2017-2?r=US&IR=T
This goes back to the point I was making to Triggaaar - capitalism is in its death agony - a terminal decline that has been occurring for more than 50 years due to the falling rate of profit.
An important point of note is that income inequality has a bigger negative impact on social cohesion than any other factor in society (including the level of abject poverty). The greater the level of inequality in society - the bigger the impact.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21528752-400-inequality-of-wealth-and-health/
I have been very fortunate in my life - a large compensation payment allowed me to buy my house and pay some of the cost of putting my children through college (still paying off the loans on that one - and the last of them has been out of college for three years). My daughter has been a doctor for three years - currently works in a hospital in London and barely makes enough to cover her normal living expenses. My son is married with a young child - his wife is a factory worker earning marginally above minimum wage - my son is a teacher, working in a school for children with severe behavioural issues, but is effectively on a day-to-day contract after six years of work as a teacher. He is guaranteed 7 hours work per week - but the rest depends on sick leave etc. They live in a house that I purchased with the compensation money and are buying it off me on effectively an interest free mortgage at a monthly rate of about 40% of the current rent levels in our town. They would not be able to afford to rent a home if I wasn't able to provide them with this. My second daughter has been very fortunate - her partner is in a high-paying tech job while she is a teacher on part-time hours. His parents own a farm and gave them the 20% deposit they needed to buy a small home. This daughter is on a lower pay scale than teachers recruited before 2011 that will result in her earning over €130,000 less during her career. My last daughter holds a masters degree and has recently lost her job in an academic institution - they privatised the work she was doing. After looking for work for several months before her redundancy, she decided to do post-graduate primary school teacher training (this has been privatised in Ireland) at a cost of €16,000 (she is funding this from savings that she had from work that was intended as a deposit for a house). At 29 years of age she has moved home with us as she cannot afford to rent. When qualified she faces several years of temporary and part-time work before she has the prospect of getting a permanent position.
There are a number of factors contributing to the problems facing this generation - the drive for zero hour contracts - the cost of housing, rent and mortgages - the cost of the repayment of student loans (and the Tories want to privatise them) - the cost of childcare - the drive for private healthcare (and the latest from the Tories is mandatory universal health insurance - which they can introduce while still claiming to be protecting the NHS) - the long hours commuting to work - etc etc. On top of that - this generation faces an environmental crisis unprecedented on a global scale - with the elites intent on making working class people pay for crisis they created through carbon taxes - through congestion charges - though a plastic tax - through compelling people to buy expensive electric cars rather then investing in a massive expansion of public transport (in an effort to maintain profits for the automotive industry) - and through the ramping up of fracking and other environmentally destructive pillaging of natural resources. This decline and emerging crisis will continue to develop over the next decades - and their children will face an even bigger drop in their living standards. Remember - in real terms - living standards have only increased marginally in the last 50 years. As a public servant in Ireland I am still earning more than 15% less (and working longer hours) than I was 10 years ago - taking into account pay cuts and tax increases introduced as an 'emergency' measure after the 2008 crash - and this is despite the fact that the Irish government has claimed for the last four years that 'austerity is over'. While 90% of the population in Ireland are still worse off than 10 years ago - the richest 300 people in Ireland have seen their wealth increase from €50billion to €100billion.
HWT - going back to your comment about your son - capitalism has played a role in his situation - and here is how. Our education system (and I am talking globally here) - is based on the needs of 19th century capitalist industrial production - compartmentalised subjects (like a production line) - students all doing exactly the same thing under the watchful eye of a teacher (like a supervisor) with ongoing conflict about school uniforms, homework, chewing gum, wearing hats - students dumped into year groups (like a date of manufacture) - the school day controlled by bells (like the factory bell) - and the focus on academic subjects to the detriment of encouraging and developing the innate talents of every individual. Your son should have been able to pursue his dream as a musician within the school environment - many students do not have academic ability, but can flourish in other areas when given the opportunity. Leaving school should not have been necessary - and even when he did - the music industry is based around profit and the churning out of a lot of mindless stuff off a production line of boy and girl bands and x-factors etc. (do you see where I am going with this). On top of that - there is absolutely no reason why society shouldn't be able to house every human being on the planet. It doesn't have to be a property ladder - indeed there really shouldn't be a need for privately owned housing, and if there wasn't we would have far fewer social problems than exist today - social housing is a no brainer, but thanks to Thatcher (and Thatchers in Ireland and other countries) the social housing stock was decimated and destroyed. On top of that - the government should be ensuring permanent well paid jobs with good working conditions - on a part-time basis for artists if necessary - and for creative spaces for artists of all descriptions to learn and grow.
These are worth watching - by Ken Robinson, an educationalist, originally from Liverpool but now living in the USA
If you don't have time for these - I would argue that it is worth the time and every one should view them - this is a summarised version -
You comment that to get elected requires 'compromise with the electorate' - this is a statement without substance. To start with the 'electorate' is not a homogeneous blob - it is made up of millions of individuals all of whom have a different outlook - different upbringing - different experiences - and different hopes and dreams - and on top of that 4 out of every 10 of the electorate are so alienated from the political system that they don't even vote. The ruling elites want political parties to 'compromise' - not with the electorate - but with capitalism - they understand that the 'electorate' really has little input into political decisions. Political parties make all kinds of promises to get votes - often these promises reflect people's experiences - protect the NHS, provide jobs and housing (some by promising to limit immigration), ensure Brexit - but they never outline how they plan to do these things or the impact of their actions on society - and often will simply break the promises they have made. Polls have repeatedly shown that a significant majority of people value public services (and those that don't either have to money to buy everything they need or don't use the service anyway). On top of that capitalism promotes individualism rather than cooperation and community support - going against the very fabric of human society (we would never have evolved if they early humanoids never cooperated).
So what is required is not some abstract 'compromise with the electorate' - it is empowering the electorate to think for themselves, to inquire, to investigate, to debate, to discuss, to act. Only when a people act on the basis of mutual cooperation and solidarity will they be capable of empowering political representatives to enact the type of society that they want - and only by active engagement will people ensure that these policies are implemented (and by people I mean working class people because they make up the vast majority of the population).
I repeat.........suffering
Suffering sooo much that all of your closest kin are in the public sector?
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
And example of the crisis that exists within society caused by inequality
I am enjoying the exchange of views between [MENTION=4019]Triggaaar[/MENTION] and [MENTION=33329]Jolly Red Giant[/MENTION]. It's what the politics threads are all about. Can't you just read the threads that interest you?
Woooosh!
https://order-order.com/2020/01/02/starmer-leads-pack-first-labour-leadership-poll/
Despite most potential candidates not yet having announced they are standing, YouGov‘s first poll of party members finds Brexit-frustrater-in-chief Sir Keir Starmer well out in front with an eleven point lead over McDonnell protégé Rebecca Long-Bailey. The polling firm found that under a hypothetical run off, Starmer is set to beat Long-Bailey by an even more commanding 61-39%…
A breakdown of the poll reveals that Starmer beats Rebecca Long-Bailey among Labour members in every age bracket, class, and gender, and only loses to her amongst one – the small number of members who voted Leave.
The poll only covered Labour Party members rather than members of affiliated unions or registered supporters – both of which are expected to be also eligible to vote in the contest, however both groups are thought to be a lot smaller than Labour’s large membership pool.
Despite all the talk of electing a non-London based working class woman to the role, it seems that members currently prefer a male, Oxford educated, inner-London MP with a knighthood…
Despite most potential candidates not yet having announced they are standing, YouGov‘s first poll of party members finds Brexit-frustrater-in-chief Sir Keir Starmer well out in front with an eleven point lead over McDonnell protégé Rebecca Long-Bailey. The polling firm found that under a hypothetical run off, Starmer is set to beat Long-Bailey by an even more commanding 61-39%…
A breakdown of the poll reveals that Starmer beats Rebecca Long-Bailey among Labour members in every age bracket, class, and gender, and only loses to her amongst one – the small number of members who voted Leave.
The poll only covered Labour Party members rather than members of affiliated unions or registered supporters – both of which are expected to be also eligible to vote in the contest, however both groups are thought to be a lot smaller than Labour’s large membership pool.
Despite all the talk of electing a non-London based working class woman to the role, it seems that members currently prefer a male, Oxford educated, inner-London MP with a knighthood…
https://order-order.com/2020/01/02/starmer-leads-pack-first-labour-leadership-poll/
Despite most potential candidates not yet having announced they are standing, YouGov‘s first poll of party members finds Brexit-frustrater-in-chief Sir Keir Starmer well out in front with an eleven point lead over McDonnell protégé Rebecca Long-Bailey. The polling firm found that under a hypothetical run off, Starmer is set to beat Long-Bailey by an even more commanding 61-39%…
A breakdown of the poll reveals that Starmer beats Rebecca Long-Bailey among Labour members in every age bracket, class, and gender, and only loses to her amongst one – the small number of members who voted Leave.
The poll only covered Labour Party members rather than members of affiliated unions or registered supporters – both of which are expected to be also eligible to vote in the contest, however both groups are thought to be a lot smaller than Labour’s large membership pool.
Despite all the talk of electing a non-London based working class woman to the role, it seems that members currently prefer a male, Oxford educated, inner-London MP with a knighthood…
If true, and if this comes to pass, I'm happy. He has a funny voice but so did Thatcher till she was trained to speak differently.
Two Professors
Two Mad Professors
Just as well our capitalist system has enough wealth creators to support our overly massive public sector.Once Dominic Cummings has finished with them,we might all get a pay rise.(as long as Labour stay in the doldrums.Praying for Cor Bin mk2)