London Irish
Well-known member
Can I persuade any Tories to join the Labour Party and vote for RLB? Like you did with Corbyn? Pretty please 
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[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party
- Thread starter Bulldog
- Start date
Can I persuade any Tories to join the Labour Party and vote for RLB? Like you did with Corbyn? Pretty please
[emoji23]
For this 50 yo man she’s very attractive btw ...
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
It really is quite pointless going through the rest of your soundbite rants - news for you - that is not how debate works. While I have my own opinion I am open to being convinced to change that opinion based on evidence - you, unfortunately, have pre-set notions and have zero interest in debating the issue.
As a demonstration in point -
As a demonstration in point -
Actually you do - You decry my claim that socialism has not existed - yet I can demonstrate this with evidence. You have also made a claim - but not produced any evidence.
Soundbite
Clearly you have not read any of the comments that I have posted on here - if you had you would know that I have not made any such claims.
Soundbite
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
If I give RLB my approval does that count?
KZNSeagull
Well-known member
Well I expect, as with Jezza's democratic LP, she is waiting for someone else to make a decision for her. She will go far.
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
But you’ve already said you’re not part of Momentum
Nope - I'm not - but some people seem to think that support from Jon Lansman (and that is who made the decision) is somehow important - so I was asking if my 'approval' was worth anything?
So for the record you can confirm you are in no way either now or in the past in anyway connected to Momentum?
Nitram
Well-known member
- Jul 16, 2013
- 2,268
Well seeing as all Momentum members must be Labour members it’s difficult to say. What’s sure is that a lot of Momentum members are Labour. At the same time many moderates have been fighting off deselection and many more have become throughly sick of this nonsense that they have left the party.
I'm not ranting. You're not debating. Replying to peoples post like this:
is not debating. We can apply the same reply to posts of yours, like this:
Oo, soundbite!
Soundbite!
Soundbite!
Soundbite!
You jump to conclusions and make points as if they're facts, when they're clearly not, and then when someone else makes a point that you disagree with you just type 'Soundbite'. That's not debate.
You've always thought Socialism would be the answer. You used to think it was imminent, but you were wrong. Now you're not willing to put a date on it, but you don't seem that open to change your mind. According to you, nowhere in the world has ever tried socialism (no one in charge seems to think it would be a good idea). Why do you think that is?
Incorrect.
I've debated the issue before, but to be fair, no one I've met really believes (your version of) socialism is the answer. No doubt many people have disagreed with your views before, and they've been unable to change your mind, so I don't see the point in trying myself. Neither of us would be able to convince the other of our opinion.
No, that's not what I was arguing. You made many claims, like the upheaval in Hong Kong was because of capitalism, and socialists recognise that upheaval is inevitable under capitalism. I obviously disagree, and you say I have to prove it. No, I don't.
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
Sorry Triggaaar - but all you have done is use soundbites - they haven't even been full sentences.
1. No I didn't always think that socialism would be the answer - I had to be convinced of it - and I question my political outlook every day. If you do not reflect on your political outlook then you are nothing more than an automaton.
2. A bit of youthful exuberance is a good think - but a bit of maturity is always important in politics
3. I cannot predict the future - but I am open to being convinced that you can.
4. Nobody had ever tried capitalism before capitalism became the standard mode of economic production - why do you think that is?
I suggest that you need to widen your circle of people you discuss politics with. If you only speak to people with the same political views you are not going to learn anything.
I change my political views on an almost daily basis - I am always attempting to refine my political outlook so that I get a better understanding of developments taking place and I can make the right judgement calls about what activities I should be engaging in. I have just spent almost a year participating in an international debate within the socialist movement - and broke with people that I had spent nearly 40 years working with (including a large number of people in Britain) because I was convinced that their approach was inhibiting the advancement of socialist ideas.
That is the difference between you and me - I am always open to being convinced to change my mind - show me the evidence, demonstrate what it means - and I will accept your hypothesis if you prove your case.
I couldn't care less if you make no effort to prove your argument - but don't expect anyone to take notice of you if you don't at least try.
Take the situation in Hong Kong as a case in point - Britain controlled Hong Kong as a colony (one of many) for 99 years - and then handed the colony and 7 million people over to the Chinese dictatorship in 1997. Of course the fact that China was a dictatorship wasn't really an issue for the British - after all Hong Kong never had a democratic government (and still doesn't). Hong Kong is dominated by wealthy oligarchs - and has one of the greatest levels of income inequality in the world. The oligarchs work hand-in-hand with the Chinese dictatorship to maintain control and continue their system of power and inequality. The only people allowed to vote in the HK legislative elections are the richest 3% (approx) of the population. The current upheaval has its roots in the Umbrella Revolution in 2014 - a mass revolt against austerity measures being introduced by the HK legislature with the support of the Chinese dictatorship (i.e. protests against the policies of capitalism). The upheaval lasted approx two months and were suppressed using widespread repression. But the underlying issues were never resolved and the ongoing repression meant that opposition continued to bubble under the surface - eventually exploding onto the streets a few months ago - sparked by the Extradition Bill proposed by the dictatorship's puppet in HK - the unelected administrator Carrie Lam. This social upheaval that has continued for months and continues today - and the problem for the Chinese dictatorship is that the upheaval in HK has the prospect of spreading to mainland China because of the slow-down of the capitalist economy in China. The Chinese dictatorship has responded by increasing repression on the mainland and whipping up Chinese nationalism in an attempt to deflect from the crisis in the economy. The prolonged nature of the protests in HK have shaken the dictatorship - and coupled with the wave of strikes by working in China that have been going on since the middle of 2018 (in response to the slow down in the capitalist economy in China) - the dictatorship are terrified about the spread of protest to the mainland. Interestingly this crisis is also spreading to capitalist Taiwan - at the same time that China and the US are jockeying for political position in the South China sea.
So to be clear - the upheaval in HK was sparked by a crisis in the capitalist economy - a response to austerity that has been bubbling under the surface for five years - and exploded onto the streets as a result of a ham-fisted attempt at repression by the dictatorship puppet in HK.
And - yes - capitalism inevitably means political upheaval - when you have inequality eventually you will have opposition to those who impose the inequality - and the history of capitalism is littered with evidence for this.
5 Hours and he hasn’t replied to my question, good luck getting a response on the above, unless he’s me HWT for a beer [emoji23]
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
Some of us have a life - and your 'question' has been answered already - but you know that
You claimed my first post was using soundbites to prove my case, and then these are the first two individual sentences of mine that you replied 'Soundbite' to:
"Secondly, I'm not giving soundbites. I commented off the top of my head on each of your points. Socialism doesn't work."
"I don't try and convince Jehovah's Witnesses that they're mistaken, it would be pointless, and I won't try and convince you that you're mistaken either. You'll carry on with your beliefs, but the world will carry on ignoring you. Judgement day will forever be coming, and never arrive."
Those are full sentences. I find it hard to believe that you don't know what a sentence is, so I guess that you're just trying to deflect from the points I've made. No doubt you'll reply that what I'm saying now is just a soundbite, because that appears to be your limit.
It appears that you were convinced of it while you were quite young. And although you claim to question your political outlook daily, you seem to have remained a socialist. What political parties have you voted for in your lifetime?
I didn't claim I could.
Because we were in the dark ages. The world has changed beyond recognition since then, and capitalism is part of that. Although I'm sure you won't like it (you'll probably just say 'soundbite', as it's easier than accepting you're wrong), capitalism has been incredibly successful.
Same view as me? You really haven't got a clue. I know and spend time with people from many different backgrounds and cultures, with hugely different views on life. Like many here I know people from all over the UK, and I've lived with people from around the world, including China, Russia, the Middle East etc. They have widely different political and religious views, but none of them believe we should live in an as yet untried socialist society, as you do.
You've never even met me, yet here you are claiming to know all.
Likewise. Show me why your version of socialism would work, and obviously I will accept it if you prove your case.
I don't need anyone to take notice. We live in a capitalist democracy and I'm happy with that, so I don't need to convince people that's what our society should be. You want radical change, but people (voters) don't believe in your ideas, so you're not getting the move towards socialism that you want. It's you that needs to prove your argument, not me.
No, the protests were not against the policies of capitalism, they were simply against China (which has its roots in socialism, rather than capitalism) trying to control the politicians in charge of Hong Kong.
It doesn't.
I agree that there will too often be extreme inequality, which will often lead to upheaval, but that doesn't have to exist with capitalism. A capitalist society is better able to look after the poorest members of that society than a socialist society. I am aware that you will disagree, but you can't prove your case, and since no socialist society has ever existed, I won't be able to prove mine beyond question either.
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
Trying to cut through the nonsense - I will start here
After that I would require extensive explanation to outline it to you. I am willing to do this - but to make it worth the effort you would have to be willing to engage in a positive fashion with an open mind. Can you do that?
Well - to start with - it wasn't called the 'dark ages' - it was called the medieval period - in fact the term 'dark ages' hasn't been used by historians since the nineteenth century. You are correct - the world has changed beyond all recognition - but you are incorrect in stating that 'capitalism is part of that' - in fact capitalism is exclusively responsible for the changes. And contrary to your preconceived notions - I recognise that capitalism was a necessary step in the development of the economy and society through industrialisation and played a progressive role in society for more than 150 years. I will give you this point - capitalism has been incredibly successful - in the past when it did advance society. These days it is in decline and has been since the 1950s. There has been a general decline in the rate of profit on a global capitalist basis for the past 60 odd years - a decline that capitalism is incapable of dragging itself out of and, ultimately, it is the reason why modern capitalism fluctuates between bubbles and crashes as it has been doing since the 1980s.
I am being serious here - if you have never met someone who supports the idea of socialism then you need to get out more - hell, even in the bastion of world capitalism, the USA, 40% of the population support socialism.
With all due respect - you were the one who came onto the thread with both guns blazing making all sorts of claims without any evidence to back it up.
Well the first thing you would have to do is recognise that the current policies of the global capitalist class cannot solve most of the major problems facing the world - the most urgent being the climate crisis. If you think they can then you should produce evidence to substantiate that claim (because most of the leading scientists globally have argued that they can't).
After that I would require extensive explanation to outline it to you. I am willing to do this - but to make it worth the effort you would have to be willing to engage in a positive fashion with an open mind. Can you do that?
You live in a capitalist democracy - most of the world lives in a capitalist dictatorship (some of which passes itself off as democracy). To start with - a capitalist democracy is a mechanism for the 1% to control society while giving the pretense that the majority actually makes decisions. Voting once every five years and having no control what your government does in the intervening period is not democracy - it is letting people with power, wealth and influence control your life. You may be happy with that - a lot of the population (and in many countries a majority) are alienated from it. Hell - even in the recent election the Tories won a majority of the seats with way less than half the votes of those that actually voted - if you include those that didn't vote the Tories got the vote of less than three in ten of the adult population.
The 'politicians' in Hong Kong are elected by less than 3% of the population - 97% of the 7million residents do not have a vote in the legislative elections - so much for capitalist democracy. Furthermore - the legislature (i.e the wealthiest 3% of the population) fully supports the Chinese dictatorship - they have been able to rake in massive levels of wealth thanks to the support of the dictatorship.And you really need to make up your mind about China (which has its roots in world capitalism going back into the nineteenth century) - you need to decide if it is capitalist or is it what you consider to be socialist - because you have claimed both when it has suited your soundbite.
Can you please demonstrate when capitalism has ever existed without inequality?
Evidence
I will give you a big opportunity to disprove my claims here - instead of taking my view of what a socialist society would be like - lets take Soviet Russia - now can you produce evidence to show that the poorest members of the population of the Soviet Union were worse off than the poorest members of the capitalist world - lets say - from the post war period up to the collapse of Stalinism. Remember - I am making a major concession here - so you should have little difficulty producing evidence to make you case.
Billy the Fish
Technocrat
Does anyone remember that Israeli bloke came on here talking about Moshe Gariani and then turned out to be part of some group that spreads Israeli propaganda around the internet?
JRG's debating style reminds me of that bloke, different subject matter but clearly an absolute fanatic. Also see flat earthers and people who think the Queen is a lizard.
JRG's debating style reminds me of that bloke, different subject matter but clearly an absolute fanatic. Also see flat earthers and people who think the Queen is a lizard.
In my lifetime the only times the UK have been proper ****ed, I mean well and truly ****ed have been when the Labour Party have been in power under Wilson & Calaghan.
Jolly Red Giant
Well-known member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 2,615
I suppose next you will tell me that Wilson and Callaghan were die-hard communists.
cjd
Well-known member
Yes.........and before you decided to spout your shit all over this football forum, most of us enjoyed Northstandchat as part of our lives.
Quite why Bozza and the Mods allow you to consistently moan, whine and be downright obnoxious to so many posters on here is beyond me.
Whatever it takes to get you off this forum , I hope it is achieved sooner rather than later.
Hastings gull
Well-known member
- Nov 23, 2013
- 4,652
Brilliant. You tell trigaar that he should broaden his discussions and then write this:
I have just spent almost a year participating in an international debate within the socialist movement - and broke with people that I had spent nearly 40 years working with (including a large number of people in Britain) because I was convinced that their approach was inhibiting the advancement of socialist ideas.