[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party

[Questions]

It always amazes me how the media tell everyone that the situation is unprecedented when talking about a party’s decline. Labour have been dead and buried before but have come back as have the Tories. A more centre Labour Party is obviously the way forward for success but how much you prostitute your real feelings and position is open to debate.

 

[Gwylan]

It’s not about 2024. It’s about rebuilding a Labour Party whose core support is disappearing. To do that it will need to stop opposing Brexit. Not much chance of that if the next leader is a London/Brighton type politician.

I can't see much point in opposing Brexit - it would be tilting at windmills. I can't see whoever was leader wasting his/her time on this. It's over.

I do agree that the next leader has to be northern though - that's why I can't believe Starmer is odds-on.

 

[Lower West Stander]

Reasonable question - the reality is that they know full well that what they want does not resonate with the electorate, so they adopt the classic hard-left strategy of trying to gain control of a much larger organisation by filling vital posts, which then gives them influence totally out of proportion to their numbers.

Yep.

I remember that going back to my uni days in the 80s when a bunch of militant loonballs would call SU meetings in tiny lecture halls at short notice. They would cram them with their supporters who had been pre warned to make sure their policies went through.


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[Jolly Red Giant]

Less than a quarter of working people are in a trade union. The world has moved on but Labour’s policies haven’t. Not sure what you have against Blair as he was the only person in recent history that made Labour electable.

Yes - trade union membership has dropped - in part because the trade union leaders sucked up to the Blairites and refused to fight for their members.

However, while trade union membership is important - it is not the key factor in developments - in France about 8% of all workers are trade union members (about 2.5million workers) - yet for the past week anything up to 10 million workers staged general strikes in France this week with up to 2million taking part in mass protests. Trade unions can be the key organising factor in workers opposition to right-wing attacks on rights - but the mass of the working class can and does act to defend their interests.

 

[Hastings gull]

Political parties are based on the membership of the party - they are the ones who decide (or at least should decide) the policies of the party and the candidates to represent the party. In the case of the LP it is 500,000 people - in the case of the Tories about 120,000 people.

It is then up to those who are not members of the political party to decide whether to vote for that party or not - and very often, like yesterday, the election can be a single issue snapshot of opinion.


The membership should dictate the policies - that is one of the privilages of being a member of a political party. Corbyn's LP is about three times bigger than the LP before he took over and, as a result is 3 times more representative of the general public. There is nothing stopping anyone from joining the LP and putting forward policy proposals for consideration (except for the Blairite bureaucracy in LP HQ who have denied tens of thousands their democratic right to join a political party of their choice and have their say).


I actually disagree with this - in my view working class people are largely more to the left than their political representatives and there is evidence to prove this - in most cases candidates more to the left who have a track record for fighting for working class people tend to do very well in elections.


No - last night was a classic example of an election that came down to a single issue - brexit - and Corbyn fluffed his lines by attempting to accommodate the Blairites. If Corbyn came out two months ago and said that he accepted the referendum decision, that he would campaign to leave the right-wing, pro-big business, anti-worker EU, that he would implement Leave and implement socialist policies in a Britain outside the EU - then Johnson would not have a leg to stand on - Johnson would have been forced to come out and defend his Tory policies on the NHS and a whole range of other issues and the election would have been about real political policies, rather than a shapshot support for 'get brexit done'.

Precisely. I could not have put it better myself. Now look at my post to which you are responding, when I wrote that an (neutral on Brexit) agenda was being pushed forward which was at odds with the not only the poor old Blairites, but also punters living in traditional Labour heartlands, who wanted to leave, but as you say -he fluffed his lines!

 

[BenGarfield]

Genuine question, assuming you are a momentum supporter, why don’t Momentum put their money where their mouths are and become a single party?

What is this fixation with momentum - weird. I doubt if he is a momentum supporter just an ordinarly left wing socialist within the labour party which was founded to be just that. It is the blairites who are the infiltrators, right wing Trotskyites if you like. There are perfectly good exisiting parties they can join which fit their politics.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

I remember that going back to my uni days in the 80s when a bunch of militant loonballs would call SU meetings in tiny lecture halls at short notice. They would cram them with their supporters who had been pre warned to make sure their policies went through.

I was an activist in a students union in the early 1980s and I strove on a constant basis to maximise the attendance at any general meeting - including at one stage getting 98% of the student body to attend mass meetings - to ensure that the decisions made were as democratically representative as possible.

I have been a trade union representative for most of my working life - and again have striven to maximise participation at every meeting and every ballot. Indeed I had to fight to maximise attendance to win my elected positions against right-wingers who wanted to minimise the attendance in the hope of clinging to their positions. Furthermore, those on the left always strive to maximise voter turnout - it is the Tories and their ilk that want to keep turnout low as it maximises the possibility of their success.

 

[Hastings gull]

It always amazes me how the media tell everyone that the situation is unprecedented when talking about a party’s decline. Labour have been dead and buried before but have come back as have the Tories. A more centre Labour Party is obviously the way forward for success but how much you prostitute your real feelings and position is open to debate.

Yes, that is true, and a more centrist approach will surely pay dividends for them in the future, if that is the outcome. I think on this occasion it is the sheer scale of the reversal of Labour's fortunes which has prompted such claims, though you are right, in that all the parties have in the past recovered with time, though I did read earlier that with such a deficit, no party in history has recovered sufficiently to win the next election.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Hang on. You have created two quotes attributed to me and yet I did not write them.

My apologies NB - one of the dangers of copying and pasting.

 

[Chicken Run]

What is this fixation with momentum - weird. I doubt if he is a momentum supporter just an ordinarly left wing socialist within the labour party which was founded to be just that. It is the blairites who are the infiltrators, right wing Trotskyites if you like. There are perfectly good exisiting parties they can join which fit their politics.

What’s your fixation with NSC, you joined in Feb this year, not started a single topic and ALL your replies are on political threads

 

[Hastings gull]

I was an activist in a students union in the early 1980s and I strove on a constant basis to maximise the attendance at any general meeting - including at one stage getting 98% of the student body to attend mass meetings - to ensure that the decisions made were as democratically representative as possible.

I have been a trade union representative for most of my working life - and again have striven to maximise participation at every meeting and every ballot. Indeed I had to fight to maximise attendance to win my elected positions against right-wingers who wanted to minimise the attendance in the hope of clinging to their positions. Furthermore, those on the left always strive to maximise voter turnout - it is the Tories and their ilk that want to keep turnout low as it maximises the possibility of their success.

I have never ever heard of this and quite frankly, would put far more credence on this if it came form anyone but you. Right-wingers attending Union meetings trying to keep left wingers out - that really would be a first.

 

[beorhthelm]

...

The membership should dictate the policies - that is one of the privilages of being a member of a political party. ...

No - last night was a classic example of an election that came down to a single issue - brexit - and Corbyn fluffed his lines by attempting to accommodate the Blairites. If Corbyn came out two months ago and said that he accepted the referendum decision, that he would campaign to leave the right-wing, pro-big business, anti-worker EU, that he would implement Leave and implement socialist policies in a Britain outside the EU (etc).

the membership wanted to remain. you say they set the policy. Corbyn is a leaver, though cant set policy. but you want Corbyn to overrule the membership and follow a leave policy. so may be go away make up your mind and try to work out how they can square this problem. then tell them about it and dont bother us.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

I don't have evidence as such, but IMO there is no reason why working class people are more or less socially conservative than the elite, or whoever. There would be a typical distribution from very socially conservative to very liberal.

Social conservatism and liberalism are ideologies of the upper and middle classes. Working class people generally are progressive, egalitarian and have an instinctive class outlook.

As for whether or not it should be a liberal party I would say it is, it has to be,it wouldn't exist in the first place if it wasn't. It was/is a party of the marginalised/taken advantage of, it empowered groups of people and wanted to make these people equal.

Liberalism does not treat people with equality - it is exclusively based on social liberalism but economic conservatism - a party of working class people needs to be socialist in outlook or it will inevitably become a party of the elites.

Its just that used to be one group of people, now there are lots of groups of people it ideally aims to empower and make equal.

Those on the right - and that includes liberals - empower the rich elites - those on the left want to empower the working class.

On the basis that around half of Labour's traditional support is socially conservative (as you would expect, no reason to think otherwise), then you have a problem when that inherent liberalism gets in the way.

Again - what evidence do you have to claim that half of Labour's traditional support is socially conservative - it is a massively sweeping statement that requires evidence to back it up. If it were true then the working class would be incapable of having any influence on anything - political or otherwise.

 

[Lower West Stander]

I was an activist in a students union in the early 1980s and I strove on a constant basis to maximise the attendance at any general meeting - including at one stage getting 98% of the student body to attend mass meetings - to ensure that the decisions made were as democratically representative as possible.

I have been a trade union representative for most of my working life - and again have striven to maximise participation at every meeting and every ballot. Indeed I had to fight to maximise attendance to win my elected positions against right-wingers who wanted to minimise the attendance in the hope of clinging to their positions. Furthermore, those on the left always strive to maximise voter turnout - it is the Tories and their ilk that want to keep turnout low as it maximises the possibility of their success.

98% of your student body not 98% of students. Big difference.

And do you think if turnout had been higher Labour would’ve won? Course not, it was Brexit and the Blairites.....


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[BenGarfield]

What’s your fixation with NSC, you joined in Feb this year, not started a single topic and ALL your replies are on political threads

Its a fab message board full of fab comments from fab people like yourself! im sorry ive not started a topic Ill try and do better in future

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

My apologies NB - one of the dangers of copying and pasting.

No worries. I managed to reply to some of your points then see them appear within your text. Copying and pasting probably works better even with the risk of accidental fake news

 

[Chicken Run]

I was an activist in a students union in the early 1980s and I strove on a constant basis to maximise the attendance at any general meeting - including at one stage getting 98% of the student body to attend mass meetings - to ensure that the decisions made were as democratically representative as possible.

I have been a trade union representative for most of my working life - and again have striven to maximise participation at every meeting and every ballot. Indeed I had to fight to maximise attendance to win my elected positions against right-wingers who wanted to minimise the attendance in the hope of clinging to their positions. Furthermore, those on the left always strive to maximise voter turnout - it is the Tories and their ilk that want to keep turnout low as it maximises the possibility of their success.

Here’s what the poster known as Ben Garfield told us about himself in the Alistair Campbell expelled thread in May, sounds familiar wouldn’t you say?

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Genuine question, assuming you are a momentum supporter, why don’t Momentum put their money where their mouths are and become a single party?

I am not a Momentum supporter - I support all of those who are on the left and argue for socialist policies within (and outside) the LP.

I am unable to have any direct input into LP politics in Britain as I live in Ireland.

My family have traditionally been LP members/supporters in Ireland - I was a member of the LP in Ireland for 12 years until I was forced out in 1992 as part of a 'Blairite' purge of the left in the Irish LP. I have been a socialist and trade union activist since 1980 and I am currently a member of the Socialist Party in Ireland (the LP in Ireland doesn't have any Corbyn figure and has no prospect of a Corbyn figure - and they are on 5% in the polls in Ireland).

 

[Chicken Run]

Its a fab message board full of fab comments from fab people like yourself! im sorry ive not started a topic Ill try and do better in future

Ok JRG [emoji23]

 

[pb21]

Social conservatism and liberalism are ideologies of the upper and middle classes. Working class people generally are progressive, egalitarian and have an instinctive class outlook.


Liberalism does not treat people with equality - it is exclusively based on social liberalism but economic conservatism - a party of working class people needs to be socialist in outlook or it will inevitably become a party of the elites.


Those on the right - and that includes liberals - empower the rich elites - those on the left want to empower the working class.



Again - what evidence do you have to claim that half of Labour's traditional support is socially conservative - it is a massively sweeping statement that requires evidence to back it up. If it were true then the working class would be incapable of having any influence on anything - political or otherwise.

Like I say I don't have any evidence. When I say half I am talking statistically. Some people will tend towards social conservatism some people social liberalism, IMO there would be a typical distribution between the two traits generally amongst everyone, and therfore within a specific group. Note, I am not making any value judgement in thinking this, there is nothing necessarily good or bad about either.

On this token what is your evidence that:

"Working class people generally are progressive, egalitarian and have an instinctive class outlook."

I would say this is a value based statement.

My opinion is that Labours traditional support includes social conservatives and social liberals, and that the current increase in social liberalism generally is marginalising the social conservative side of Labours traditional support and on that basis they are voting for other parties/ideas.