[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party

[Weststander]

Momentum have seized the party sadly, can’t see them letting a centre left leader come in

They won’t. Jess Phillips, Yvette Cooper or Hilary Benn have no chance.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Most folk would have resigned now and let matters develop, but not our Jezza, who will campaign, as he loves to do, to ensure that his cronies stay in power, even if it flies in the face of public opinion.

You mean the people who have the support of a majority of the members of the LP

 

[Hastings gull]

Where did I ever claim that there was nothing wrong with Corbyn ? - in fact I have repeatedly criticised Corbyn for his approach to brexit - for compromising with the Blairites (and he is also wrong on the national question in Scotland) - that doesn't mean that Corbyn did not have the interests of working class people at heart.


The Blairites are who they are - neo-liberals, pro-EU bureaucracy, pro-imperialism, pro-rich elites - all I am doing is recognising their political outlook.


Is the general public opposed to the preservation of the NHS?

Is the general public opposed to the privatisation of the NHS?

Is the general public opposed to the re-nationalisation of the railways and other transport?

Is the general public opposed to the privatisation of the education system?

Is the general public opposed to increased funding in education?

Is the general public opposed to increased taxes on the rich to fund public services and help for the poor?

Is the general public opposed to policies that would eliminate the need for food banks?

Is the general public opposed to the gentrification of urban areas and the elimination of public housing?

etc.

Poor old Blairites are getting it again! Why are you asking these absurdly simplistic questions?

 

[Weststander]

Most folk would have resigned now and let matters develop, but not our Jezza, who will campaign, as he loves to do, to ensure that his cronies stay in power, even if it flies in the face of public opinion.

That’s fine. The unelectable marxist project will stay a pipe dream.

 

[jakarta]

I guarantee you that the Tories would much prefer a Blairite leading the LP than Corbyn - they could keep banging on about Brexit and not have to worry about being criticised for their attacks on the NHS and public services.

Yes, because that worked this time didn't it?

 

[CaptainDaveUK]

When Ed Miliband allowed new members a vote, Momentum flooded in and took over the party. Even Tories were joining and voting for Corbyn. I think Labour are now one more bad appointment away from becoming obsolete.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Where did I ever claim that there was nothing wrong with Corbyn ? - in fact I have repeatedly criticised Corbyn for his approach to brexit - for compromising with the Blairites (and he is also wrong on the national question in Scotland) - that doesn't mean that Corbyn did not have the interests of working class people at heart.


The Blairites are who they are - neo-liberals, pro-EU bureaucracy, pro-imperialism, pro-rich elites - all I am doing is recognising their political outlook.


Is the general public opposed to the preservation of the NHS?

Is the general public opposed to the privatisation of the NHS?

Is the general public opposed to the re-nationalisation of the railways and other transport?

Is the general public opposed to the privatisation of the education system?

Is the general public opposed to increased funding in education?

Is the general public opposed to increased taxes on the rich to fund public services and help for the poor?

Is the general public opposed to policies that would eliminate the need for food banks?

Is the general public opposed to the gentrification of urban areas and the elimination of public housing?

etc.

Hang on. You have created two quotes attributed to me and yet I did not write them.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

So the membership will not be attracted to Momentum candidates -now that really is a first.

Didn't say that - I said I wasn't in favour of Momentum candidates being automatically selected.

So you are against monarchical and continued power, yet only recently stated that Blairites should get their just deserts on de-selection, so that the "correct" views can prevail. It sounds rather like you don't want anyone else with contrary views to have power.

where did I ever state anything about a 'correct' view - I argued and continue to do so for the mandatory reselection of MPs in the LP. The membership should decide who the candidate is - just because they are an MP should not mean that they are automatically selected without having to get the support of the constituency membership.

 

[Hastings gull]

You mean the people who have the support of a majority of the members of the LP

But not the mass of labour voters, as has been demonstrated to those prepared to listen and take remedial action. The membership consists of a small proportion of Labour supporters, as you well know. That is the problem - the membership want to dictate policies and actions that the majority of Labour (and others) do not necessarily support. Yes, they may well say that as they are members they have every right at the very least to be involved in policy making, which is fair enough, but they also know that their version of socialism is far more radical/extreme than that of the voters on whom they rely to vote them into power. Last night was a classic case in point -a hard left often middle class and young cadre pushing an agenda that was clearly not welcome in traditional Labour heartlands, where, rightly or wrongly, the punters wanted to get Brexit done.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Why are you asking these absurdly simplistic questions?

So it is 'simplistic' to call for the protection of the National Health Service ?

Wow -

 

[pb21]

Labour should not be a liberal party - it was founded as the socialist political wing of the trade union movement.

What is your evidence for suggesting that working class people are 'socially conservative'?

I don't have evidence as such, but IMO there is no reason why working class people are more or less socially conservative than the elite, or whoever. There would be a typical distribution from very socially conservative to very liberal.

As for whether or not it should be a liberal party I would say it is, it has to be,it wouldn't exist in the first place if it wasn't. It was/is a party of the marginalised/taken advantage of, it empowered groups of people and wanted to make these people equal.

Its just that used to be one group of people, now there are lots of groups of people it ideally aims to empower and make equal.

On the basis that around half of Labour's traditional support is socially conservative (as you would expect, no reason to think otherwise), then you have a problem when that inherent liberalism gets in the way.

 

[Gwylan]

A Northern, working class Leaver.
More likely to end up with a Southern, student issues Remainer.

I don't think that it will matter whether someone is a leaver or remainer in 2024 - that argument is done and dusted

 

[Chicken Run]

Corbyn should remain as leader and launch a struggle within the party to remove the Blairites who remain in control of the LP bureaucracy.

Labour lost this election because Corbyn attempted to accommodate the Blairites by caving in on his previous Leave position (coupled with the fact that he refused to take action against LP councilllors who imposed Tory cuts on local services).

The Blairites have been sabotaging Corbyn's leadership since he was elected - and the time has come now to make the public representatives of the LP more representative of the vast majority of the membership.

Genuine question, assuming you are a momentum supporter, why don’t Momentum put their money where their mouths are and become a single party?

 

[Hastings gull]

Didn't say that - I said I wasn't in favour of Momentum candidates being automatically selected.


where did I ever state anything about a 'correct' view - I argued and continue to do so for the mandatory reselection of MPs in the LP. The membership should decide who the candidate is - just because they are an MP should not mean that they are automatically selected without having to get the support of the constituency membership.

All very fine in theory, and doubtless that will satisfy you, but as we both know the membership is only likely to come to one conclusion. It is blatant nonsense to claim that the membership will decide, as if there would be some sort of open discussion, with the membership amenable to everyone's views, when you know full well, what their decision will be, when it comes to de-selection.

 

[Hastings gull]

Genuine question, assuming you are a momentum supporter, why don’t Momentum put their money where their mouths are and become a single party?

Reasonable question - the reality is that they know full well that what they want does not resonate with the electorate, so they adopt the classic hard-left strategy of trying to gain control of a much larger organisation by filling vital posts, which then gives them influence totally out of proportion to their numbers.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

Genuine question, assuming you are a momentum supporter, why don’t Momentum put their money where their mouths are and become a single party?

I agree. They do, after all, have quite a few champagne socialists who could afford it.

 

[Driver8]

Labour should not be a liberal party - it was founded as the socialist political wing of the trade union movement.

What is your evidence for suggesting that working class people are 'socially conservative'?

Less than a quarter of working people are in a trade union. The world has moved on but Labour’s policies haven’t. Not sure what you have against Blair as he was the only person in recent history that made Labour electable.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I don't think that it will matter whether someone is a leaver or remainer in 2024 - that argument is done and dusted

It’s not about 2024. It’s about rebuilding a Labour Party whose core support is disappearing. To do that it will need to stop opposing Brexit. Not much chance of that if the next leader is a London/Brighton type politician.

 

[el punal]

Dianne Abbott!

Fulfils so many tick boxes.

How many? No, whatever you do, do not ask her for the answer.

#prayfortickboxes

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

But not the mass of labour voters, as has been demonstrated to those prepared to listen and take remedial action.

Political parties are based on the membership of the party - they are the ones who decide (or at least should decide) the policies of the party and the candidates to represent the party. In the case of the LP it is 500,000 people - in the case of the Tories about 120,000 people.

It is then up to those who are not members of the political party to decide whether to vote for that party or not - and very often, like yesterday, the election can be a single issue snapshot of opinion.

The membership consists of a small proportion of Labour supporters, as you well know. That is the problem - the membership want to dictate policies and actions that the majority of Labour (and others) do not necessarily support.

The membership should dictate the policies - that is one of the privilages of being a member of a political party. Corbyn's LP is about three times bigger than the LP before he took over and, as a result is 3 times more representative of the general public. There is nothing stopping anyone from joining the LP and putting forward policy proposals for consideration (except for the Blairite bureaucracy in LP HQ who have denied tens of thousands their democratic right to join a political party of their choice and have their say).

Yes, they may well say that as they are members they have every right at the very least to be involved in policy making, which is fair enough, but they also know that their version of socialism is far more radical/extreme than that of the voters on whom they rely to vote them into power.

I actually disagree with this - in my view working class people are largely more to the left than their political representatives and there is evidence to prove this - in most cases candidates more to the left who have a track record for fighting for working class people tend to do very well in elections.

Last night was a classic case in point -a hard left often middle class and young cadre pushing an agenda that was clearly not welcome in traditional Labour heartlands, where, rightly or wrongly, the punters wanted to get Brexit done.

No - last night was a classic example of an election that came down to a single issue - brexit - and Corbyn fluffed his lines by attempting to accommodate the Blairites. If Corbyn came out two months ago and said that he accepted the referendum decision, that he would campaign to leave the right-wing, pro-big business, anti-worker EU, that he would implement Leave and implement socialist policies in a Britain outside the EU - then Johnson would not have a leg to stand on - Johnson would have been forced to come out and defend his Tory policies on the NHS and a whole range of other issues and the election would have been about real political policies, rather than a shapshot support for 'get brexit done'.