[Football] Newcastle fans and YouTuber support Saudi, confront protesters

[Neville's Breakfast]

How myopic. Life, ironically, is not black and white. People make concessions and compromises all the time.

People are well aware that the Saudis are using us to Sportswash their regime (the efficacy of this plan is very questionable, but that's for another day), they're also well aware that the Saudis are in bed with the government, the PL, the FA, UK business, and myriad organisations across the Western world. Can you explain why it falls to fans of a parochial football club to stand against the tide of whitewashing that regime?

Explain to a grandfather who's been attending matches for 60yrs, taken his son and then his granddaughter to matches for years, explain to him that he must walk away so that some fans of other clubs think better of him? Then explain to 24yr old who's experienced mostly shit under Ashley to walk away the minute we're beginning to be run as an actual sporting concern, explain why he should walk away. Then do that another 51,998 times, explain to each of those distinct people, with distinct reasons for going to the match why they should all walk away from the club they've loved all their lives.

And for what? The temporary and gossamer thin praise from fans of other clubs? At best the Saudis leave and are replaced by a similarly ambitious set of owners. What's the likelihood of that? More likely we get another Ashley, or worse, the Saudis go off and buy another Premier League club whose fans get the same shit, but who don't walk away.

Don’t then. That’s fine. So why are you on here looking for ‘gossamer thin praise from other fans ?’ Sorry, we are not going to give you the vindication you want. I have no idea why you are looking for it.

 

[The Fish]

Your fanbase are not thick and morally bankrupt. However individuals within it clearly are. I don’t know how many individuals this amounts to but it looks like a lot on tv. Doubtless if the Saudis bought our club there would be many on here who would behave in the same manner as your fans. They have said so on threads in NSC. They have no right to condemn your fans. Many of us would walk away though because if you know our history you will know how important we view the ownership. What you and your fellow fans cannot pick up and put down easily is success, not your club. If you don’t have a local billionaire then accept whatever place in the pyramid is delivered by an owner that allows you to look at yourself in the mirror each morning. The football authorities approved this ownership because of the money and because your fans demonstrated in favour of it rather than against. It was easy for them to approve the deal. It’s as simple as that.

It's not success, it's the club, that's why our attendances were still astounding in the second tier, that's why despite enduring garbage footballers playing garbage football under a garbage manager for a garbage owner, we still were filling around 50k of St James' seats. One of the recurring themes of protests was "We don't demand a team that wins, we just demand a team that tries". Hell, Newcastle hasn't had 'success' in >50 years, of all the things to throw our way, suggesting we're only interested in success is way, way off target.

The football authorities approved this ownership because of money. That's where that sentence should have stopped. Had nothing to do with the fans.

 

[The Fish]

Don’t then. That’s fine. So why are you on here looking for ‘gossamer thin praise from other fans ?’ Sorry, we are not going to give you the vindication you want. I have no idea why you are looking for it.

Not after praise, or vindication, or sympathy. I'm on here to get a view from outside the echo chamber, and address a few of the more wayward opinions without trolling or internet point-scoring.

 

[AstroSloth]

Protests and boycotts did nothing to get rid of the previous owner. The very fact you state that they did shows how little you actually know about the subject. Ashley sold us when, and only when, he received a huge amount of money up front. He couldn't give a toss about the protests.

Also the protests against Ashley were because of how he was running our club, not because of his treatment of his Sports Direct Employees.

By the by, using a youtube vlog as justification to criticise a large and varied group of people would be pretty thick, no?

Then why did they bother to do them?

Shows a lot that Newcastle fans were happy to boycott Ashley knowing it had no effect but won't do the same with the new owners.

 

[The Fish]

Then why did they bother to do them?

Shows a lot that Newcastle fans were happy to boycott Ashley knowing it had no effect but won't do the same with the new owners.

? I don't understand your logic here, sorry. We protested and boycotted in an effort to oust him, but that didn't work. We didn't know ahead of time that it wouldn't work.

 

[aolstudios]

It's funny, when Ashley bought us I was cockahoop. Here was a self-made English Billionaire, who shied away from the press (unlike Shepherd), who seemed like a man of the people. He seemed to want to get the fans on board quickly, by installing Keegan and all that. The wheels quickly fell off when it was clear he didn't have a clue about football, but lacked the humility to put the club in the hands of people who did. Within 18 months of buying us it became clear he hadn't done his due diligence, he employed yes-men and was already looking to sell us. Then came the cost cutting and abandonment of all sporting ambition.

Could we have had a worse owner? Of course we could. You need only look at Bury etc. But everybody's battles are their own and for us, he was antithetical to everything that makes our club special to us.

You do have worse owners. Much, much worse.
Saudi

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Not after praise, or vindication, or sympathy. I'm on here to get a view from outside the echo chamber, and address a few of the more wayward opinions without trolling or internet point-scoring.

Fair enough and you do it politely which is to your credit. I’m certainly not saying you shouldn’t.

 

[Cheggers]

I think Eddy struggles to differentiate his arse from his elbow. What a sausage.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

It's not success, it's the club, that's why our attendances were still astounding in the second tier, that's why despite enduring garbage footballers playing garbage football under a garbage manager for a garbage owner, we still were filling around 50k of St James' seats. One of the recurring themes of protests was "We don't demand a team that wins, we just demand a team that tries". Hell, Newcastle hasn't had 'success' in >50 years, of all the things to throw our way, suggesting we're only interested in success is way, way off target.

The football authorities approved this ownership because of money. That's where that sentence should have stopped. Had nothing to do with the fans.

Btw in a previous post you said that if the Saudis didn’t own Newcastle they might buy another club and the example you used is Man U. Quite clearly it is success you are after if you consider that to be the bracket you MUST operate in. My local club are in L2. The owner lives around the corner from me and is an ex player. I’ve watched them three times this season. The club still exists. It’s just there’s no success.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

No, they're not. The overwhelming majority would much preferred to be owned by a local businessman done good. Unfortunately we don't have a Bloom knocking about. The reason so many are going to games is because Newcastle United existed long before the Saudis owned it and it'll exist long after they've gone. Football may be a hobby that you can pick up and put down easily, but for the majority of Newcastle fans it is not. I'd wager were some awful regime were to buy out your club, you'd find the choice much harder than you make it out to be.

Repeatedly calling an entire fanbase thick and morally bankrupt reveals more about you, than it does us.

I'd find the choice very easy. The choice would be to start making a lot of noise before they had even bought the club so that they got the idea they'd not be welcome at our club.

The next choice is to never stop making that noise and to join in protests and not attend games instead.

Remember when a decent number of Man U fans walked away from their club and formed their own because they disapproved of certain owners buying their club?

You make the weakest excuses as to why you as a fanbase aren't all out there trying to get rid of these scum owners.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

How myopic. Life, ironically, is not black and white. People make concessions and compromises all the time.

People are well aware that the Saudis are using us to Sportswash their regime (the efficacy of this plan is very questionable, but that's for another day), they're also well aware that the Saudis are in bed with the government, the PL, the FA, UK business, and myriad organisations across the Western world. Can you explain why it falls to fans of a parochial football club to stand against the tide of whitewashing that regime?

I dunno, maybe it's because if you actually loved your club as many profess they'd not want their club to be used to in this way.

Explain to a grandfather who's been attending matches for 60yrs, taken his son and then his granddaughter to matches for years, explain to him that he must walk away so that some fans of other clubs think better of him? Then explain to 24yr old who's experienced mostly shit under Ashley to walk away the minute we're beginning to be run as an actual sporting concern, explain why he should walk away. Then do that another 51,998 times, explain to each of those distinct people, with distinct reasons for going to the match why they should all walk away from the club they've loved all their lives.

If the Grandfather had a brain he'd tell his granddaughter the Saudis are vile people and they'd treat his granddaughter like shit if she lived there so he won't put his money into a club run by them.

 

[Tarpon]

How myopic. Life, ironically, is not black and white. People make concessions and compromises all the time.

People are well aware that the Saudis are using us to Sportswash their regime (the efficacy of this plan is very questionable, but that's for another day), they're also well aware that the Saudis are in bed with the government, the PL, the FA, UK business, and myriad organisations across the Western world. Can you explain why it falls to fans of a parochial football club to stand against the tide of whitewashing that regime?

Explain to a grandfather who's been attending matches for 60yrs, taken his son and then his granddaughter to matches for years, explain to him that he must walk away so that some fans of other clubs think better of him? Then explain to 24yr old who's experienced mostly shit under Ashley to walk away the minute we're beginning to be run as an actual sporting concern, explain why he should walk away. Then do that another 51,998 times, explain to each of those distinct people, with distinct reasons for going to the match why they should all walk away from the club they've loved all their lives.

And for what? The temporary and gossamer thin praise from fans of other clubs? At best the Saudis leave and are replaced by a similarly ambitious set of owners. What's the likelihood of that? More likely we get another Ashley, or worse, the Saudis go off and buy another Premier League club whose fans get the same shit, but who don't walk away.

And for what? I dunno, self respect?

 

[The Fish]

Btw in a previous post you said that if the Saudis didn’t own Newcastle they might buy another club and the example you used is Man U. Quite clearly it is success you are after if you consider that to be the bracket you MUST operate in. My local club are in L2. The owner lives around the corner from me and is an ex player. I’ve watched them three times this season. The club still exists. It’s just there’s no success.

I think you're conflating two distinct topics there. I said that the club is what people are tied to, not success, and furthered that point by referencing our attendances have been high regardless of 5 decades without 'success'. And separately I said that Man Utd fans are clamouring for a Qatari takeover, to illustrate that Newcastle fans are not unique in acceptance of ownership from a questionable state.

I didn't say Newcastle "MUST" operate in the same bracket as Manchester United. At all. I didn't even hint at it.

 

[The Fish]

I'd find the choice very easy. The choice would be to start making a lot of noise before they had even bought the club so that they got the idea they'd not be welcome at our club.

The next choice is to never stop making that noise and to join in protests and not attend games instead.

Remember when a decent number of Man U fans walked away from their club and formed their own because they disapproved of certain owners buying their club?

You make the weakest excuses as to why you as a fanbase aren't all out there trying to get rid of these scum owners.

It's very easy to state that as an absolute, but until it happens to you, to your club, it's purely hypothetical. You have no earthly idea how you'd feel had this situation happened to your club. You personally may be someone who would make a stand, shout loudly, protest outside the ground and refuse to support Brighton anymore. But how many would join you, how many tens of thousands may feel differently?

Yes, some Manchester United fans walked away to form FCUM, but not solely in protest of the Glazer takeover, there were more layers to that particular onion. And it didn't prevent the takeover, and Old Trafford is still full, and some fans actually attend both teams' fixtures.

 

[The Fish]

I dunno, maybe it's because if you actually loved your club as many profess they'd not want their club to be used to in this way.

The Newcastle fans I know are capable of holding many thoughts in their heads at the same time. It's not Binary. It's reductive to suggest that it is. Proper back page of the Sun, or front page of the Mail stuff. No nuance, no gradations, just A or B. It's childish to view the world like that.

If the Grandfather had a brain he'd tell his granddaughter the Saudis are vile people and they'd treat his granddaughter like shit if she lived there so he won't put his money into a club run by them.

Ok cool, now, only 51,999 to go.

 

[The Fish]

And for what? I dunno, self respect?

I have self-respect. I love my football club, and I think the owners are disgusting and shouldn't be anywhere near an community institution. If the UK Government decided tomorrow that no foreign states could own an English football club, then us and Man City would need to find new owners, just like Chelsea had to. I'd be fine with that. If Brighton were bought by Brunei, it would be rotten, but I sure as shit wouldn't blame the fans.

 

[Baldseagull]

It's very easy to state that as an absolute, but until it happens to you, to your club, it's purely hypothetical. You have no earthly idea how you'd feel had this situation happened to your club. You personally may be someone who would make a stand, shout loudly, protest outside the ground and refuse to support Brighton anymore. But how many would join you, how many tens of thousands may feel differently?

Yes, some Manchester United fans walked away to form FCUM, but not solely in protest of the Glazer takeover, there were more layers to that particular onion. And it didn't prevent the takeover, and Old Trafford is still full, and some fans actually attend both teams' fixtures.

I do, and I would not be celebrating, making up chants about how rich my club was now, waving a Saudi Flag, or be able to enjoy any success, because it would be their success.
I get that no one liked Mike Ashley, and he might not have run things well, but he did not asset strip your club, apart from sacking Keegan, and selling Andy Carroll, what was it that Ashley did that supposedly ruined your club? He was trying to run the club sustainably from what I can tell, but surrounded himself with shit advisors. Your fans wanted an Abramovich, or other money laundering, sportwashing, FFP busting owner, and now you have one and are closing your eyes to where the funding is coming from. I wouldn't, and it isn't hard to imagine how I would feel about it.

 

[Baldseagull]

I have self-respect. I love my football club, and I think the owners are disgusting and shouldn't be anywhere near an community institution. If the UK Government decided tomorrow that no foreign states could own an English football club, then us and Man City would need to find new owners, just like Chelsea had to. I'd be fine with that. If Brighton were bought by Brunei, it would be rotten, but I sure as shit wouldn't blame the fans.

I wouldn't be having a party outside the stadium.

 

[Hotchilidog]

I have self-respect. I love my football club, and I think the owners are disgusting and shouldn't be anywhere near an community institution. If the UK Government decided tomorrow that no foreign states could own an English football club, then us and Man City would need to find new owners, just like Chelsea had to. I'd be fine with that. If Brighton were bought by Brunei, it would be rotten, but I sure as shit wouldn't blame the fans.

It's not your football club anymore, it belongs to PiF and Newcastle fans are merely shiny accessories being used to sell their sports-washing project to the world. Well done, bravo!

 

[Zeberdi]

I don’t necessarily agree with @The Fish but I do think he makes some valid points.

I have to be completely honest and transparent and will probably get a barrage of criticism for saying it, so ducking my head BUT - what if it were Brighton, a Club that I’ve loved and supported for 50 years that, heaven forbid, lost TB’s investments and started taking a financial turn down and our trajectory was on a reverse, heading back to the 1990s? (Not saying that’s what was going on with Newcastle btw)

Yes, I would protest against the behaviour of the Saudi State towards women, political opposition, LBGTQs and sign every petition calling for our Club to find an alternative source of revenue to keep us in the PL but what in the end, if there was no alternative?

Going to watch my team in the NS at the Goldstone was an integral part of my youth, fighting to save our Club from going into oblivion, Withdean, Gillingham, later fighting for the Falmer site - all part of growing up and living in a town where the Seagulls was an ever presence in the community, sometimes until the threat of losing our home and league status became real, a presence that at times I took for granted. They were tough times but times most us us remember with great fondness and passion when local football was ‘local football’.

But things are different now - I’ve seen us promoted to and staying up in the PL, signing world class players, taking on and beating Big 7 teams - I’ve felt what it’s like to watch incredible, cutting edge football under one of the greatest managers in the modern game, and like every other supporter, experienced the exhilaration of qualifying for Europe.

Would I be willing to say goodbye to all of that having had a taste of what it feels like to support a world class team if the only choice of financial rescue came from a sportswashing State?

I think if I were being very honest, I would have to admit, as @The Fish says, that it’s much easier to claim the high moral ground when it’s not your own Club under the microscope.

By all means I will continue to slam the dirty Saudi investors where ever they invest in an attempt to wash themselves clean in the eyes of the world of their heinous record on Human Rights - and would continue do so if Brighton ever received investment from them (protesting against their regime at any footballing opportunity) but stop going to watch my team play (or watching TV fixtures (because any boycott on ‘moral’ grounds would have to include that))? I can’t envisage that - it would be a step too far for me personally I think, in the stand on morality.

Sportswashing money is here, not just in football but global sports as a whole, the money is not going back in the pot, it’s inextricably linked to the global sports economy and until I am prepared to give up one of the very few things that I am still able to participate in and get great enjoyment from, the support of a Club that has been a part of my life for 50 years, I don’t think I am in a position to demand a higher standard of morality from any other football club supporter by expecting them to stop attending matches and stop supporting a Club they’ve supported all their life.

That doesn’t mean turning a blind eye to sportwashing activities or ignoring the human rights violations of Saudi and other Gulf States - on the contrary, it means using every opportunity to highlight them, including doing it at football matches with petitions and banners - that’s maybe one of the best ways to undermine sportswashing on the terraces, just continue to embarrass the fcukers and show it up for what it is, dirty washing that will never be clean until they change their stance on human rights - it’s gone too far for boycotting to have a meaningful impact, especially with worldwide TV revenue and I’m probably too morally bankrupt to give up something that I love doing so much.