New Poll. Europe: In or Out

[surrey jim]

Have you read this letter? Can hardly accuse these guys of scaremongering.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...-to-lose-the-security-provided-by-the-EU.html

Letters: In an increasingly unstable world, Britain can’t afford to lose the security provided by the EU

Signed

Not all wanted to have their name included in the letter

http://news.sky.com/story/1647458/ex-generals-name-off-list-of-eu-supporters

 

[Deleted member 22389]

If that ended up to be the case, it's a price worth paying to protect our borders properly.

Genuine question: What does 'protecting our borders properly' actually mean? Its a commonly used phrase but what would actually change? It seems to me that the primary problem is that successive governments have cut back on 'border staff' (customs, passport control officers etc) and so it is easier to smuggle contraband (and even people) in than ever before. Currently we are taking less refugees than any other European country and they are sat in Calais rather than Dover. Norway has to accept freedom of EU people in the same way as EU members do in order to trade with the EU fairly.

So, what do we differently in order to 'protect our borders properly' and what would be the objective?

We need proper border controls for people coming from the EU.

 

[GT49er]

Your point would have validity when such people sign a letter or whatever backing the call to leave. I think,in the case of 'big business' a lot of them are staying out of it.

They were asked too sign an 'In' letter; many refused.

They were not asked to choose between an 'In' letter and an 'out' letter - nobody was asked to sign an 'out' letter. In my opinion, the In campaign is morally damaged by forcing civil servants not to remain neutral, anyway.

 

[GT49er]

Whatever!!!

The ins will say 25% have signed in support and 75% haven't signed to pull out.

The outs will say only 25% signed in support and 75% didn't.

Whether you like it or not, it's spin.

Oh for heaven's sake! We all know which side you are on, but I can't see any post where somebody has said 75% are in favour of 'out'. 75% (roughly) didn't sign; reasons for not signing are unknown.

 

[drew]

Oh for heaven's sake! We all know which side you are on, but I can't see any post where somebody has said 75% are in favour of 'out'. 75% (roughly) didn't sign; reasons for not signing are unknown.

Not quite sure what point you're making!

At the moment, I am for staying in as I haven't seen any good arguments for coming out.

The point I was making was that Pasta man was trying to suggest the opinion of the 25% that did sign was pretty much irrelevant.

 

[drew]

If that ended up to be the case, it's a price worth paying to protect our borders properly.

We need proper border controls for people coming from the EU.

You still don't clarify what you mean by border controls? Do you mean we don't let anyone in from the EU or do you mean they should be checked in so we know who is here and when they leave. Do you mean being more selective on who we let in etc etc.

 

[pastafarian]

If the uk leave the EU what do you think the first thing the french will do? They will ask the uk boarder force in france to leave. They will then empty all the jungle camps in northern france and ship all the immigrants/refugees down the tunnel.

who told you this utter bulshit?

The french interior ministry have already confirmed because of stupid comments like yours that there is no intention of stopping our treaties and said that giving up our border treaties (that have frack all to do with EU membership) will encourage untold amounts of migration to Calais and create a humanitarian nightmare at Calais and they have no intention of kick starting this.

this is complete and utter scare tactic crap that the IN campaign are peddling to the gullible

.

 

[abc]

If that ended up to be the case, it's a price worth paying to protect our borders properly.

We need proper border controls for people coming from the EU.

Could you read my post again and then answer my questions. I'd really like to know. Thank you

 

[marshy68]

We have an agreement with the French, they wouldn't suddenly open the borders like you suggested. If the deal changed then it would be a gradual process, but you need to remember the only reason these people are here in the first place is because of the shoddy borders across the whole EU in the first place. One of the reasons why I am voting out. The EU can't seem to see their own mistakes.

We have an agreement with the EU. Not in the EU no agreement. There would be huge pressure on the French Govt to clear the camps and move the problem. They would be able to do this legally if we are night signed up to the EU Treaty.

 

[gregbrighton]

Didn't the UK join the European Common Market only in 1973? We managed not being part of it before then presumably, and if we left now we would manage again without all of the red tape of Brussels regulation and red tape.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

We need proper border controls for people coming from the EU.

Exactly. Because our borders are only as secure as the weakest link in the external borders of the EU as long as all EU citizens have a right to come here. EU citizens face less rigorous border checks and it is extremely difficult (virtually impossible?) for us to deny entry.

The million plus people arriving in the EU last year have undergone few if any checks. We know Islamist extremists have exploited and are exploiting this weakness, we know the vast majority of migrants will be granted EU citizenship at some point. It surely follows this makes our borders less secure.

As for the it's only a small minority argument well if we are being generous (plus criminally gullible) and only say 1% hold extreme anti western views supporting the radical Islamist agenda that's still over 100,000 people. There are at least 5,000 terrorists trained by Islamic State in the Middle East now back in Europe according to the Chief of Europol. Another million migrants/refugees are forecast to come this year.

To quote the former head of the Downing street international terrorism team / Joint Intelligence Committee "By leaving we will again be able to determine who does and does not enter the UK. Failure to do so significantly increases the terrorist threat here, endangers our people and is a betrayal of this country."

 

[pastafarian]

They will then empty all the jungle camps in northern france and ship all the immigrants/refugees down the tunnel. The french will have no legal reason not to do this. So you may want to think about camps in all over the south of england before you get too excited about being able to police your own borders. .

because the first thing the economic migrants living in squalid camps in Calais will do is set up a squalid camp in Kent.

i presume you are saying they will simply forget to claim asylum,out of interest is there a course to take in ridiculous scare stories?

 

[marshy68]

who told you this utter bulshit?

The french interior ministry have already confirmed because of stupid comments like yours that there is no intention of stopping our treaties and said that giving up our border treaties (that have frack all to do with EU membership) will encourage untold amounts of migration to Calais and create a humanitarian nightmare at Calais and they have no intention of kick starting this.

this is complete and utter scare tactic crap that the IN campaign are peddling to the gullible

.

Well we will have to wait and see, any good will that is left in France might dissipate after a brexit yes vote. I don't think people realize how things they take for granted today eg free movement. the right to work and live in EU states will change if we decide to leave. The we will be able to control our own borders argument is Bullshit. We control them already. Hence we don't have camps in the UK as in France. The main issue for the leave campaign as far as I can see is no-one actually knows the consequences of leaving. You talk about gullibility, isn't is a bit gullible to vote for something when you have no idea of the outcome of what you are voting for?

 

[marshy68]

Exactly. Because our borders are only as secure as the weakest link in the external borders of the EU as long as all EU citizens have a right to come here. EU citizens face less rigorous border checks and it is extremely difficult (virtually impossible?) for us to deny entry.

The million plus people arriving in the EU last year have undergone few if any checks. We know Islamist extremists have exploited and are exploiting this weakness, we know the vast majority of migrants will be granted EU citizenship at some point. It surely follows this makes our borders less secure.

As for the it's only a small minority argument well if we are being generous (plus criminally gullible) and only say 1% hold extreme anti western views supporting the radical Islamist agenda that's still over 100,000 people. There are at least 5,000 terrorists trained by Islamic State in the Middle East now back in Europe according to the Chief of Europol. Another million migrants/refugees are forecast to come this year.

To quote the former head of the Downing street international terrorism team / Joint Intelligence Committee "By leaving we will again be able to determine who does and does not enter the UK. Failure to do so significantly increases the terrorist threat here, endangers our people and is a betrayal of this country."

So the most serious terrorist threat seen in the UK was perpetrated by UK born Muslims (the London tube and bus bombing). As were the terror attacks in Paris (French or belguim born Muslims).

 

[marshy68]

because the first thing the economic migrants living in squalid camps in Calais will do is set up a squalid camp in Kent.

i presume you are saying they will simply forget to claim asylum,out of interest is there a course to take in ridiculous scare stories?

No there is no course to take. Just trying to think rationally about what might happen. Yes undoubtedly they will claim political asylum. We will have to set up camps to process them all and then either welcome them in or deport them. The process will take years and cost ££££. Farage's answer to this issue was on the Andrew Marr show on sunday "We will disperse them". Rightio Oh......

 

[Westdene Seagull]

We have an agreement with the EU. Not in the EU no agreement. There would be huge pressure on the French Govt to clear the camps and move the problem. They would be able to do this legally if we are night signed up to the EU Treaty.

No it's not - it's an Anglo-French agreement. As for clearing the camps ? You mean like the French have just started doing with eviction notices.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

So the most serious terrorist threat seen in the UK was perpetrated by UK born Muslims (the London tube and bus bombing). As were the terror attacks in Paris (French or belguim born Muslims).

In the UK true so why add to the risk? The last Gentleman I quoted Chaired the Cobra Intelligence Group, responsible for coordinating the work of the national intelligence agencies, including MI5 and MI6, during the July 2005 London bombings, the Madrid and Bali attacks.He seems to think this is a problem.

The Paris attacks were carried out by a mixture of French/Belgian nationals some who had travelled to Syria for training then came back , some entered Europe via the Greek islands posing as refugees and as far as I am aware their nationality is unknown. Which proves the point about unsafe external borders. Once again why add to the risk?

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

If that ended up to be the case, it's a price worth paying to protect our borders properly.

We need proper border controls for people coming from the EU.

You know that passport thing you show when you enter the country. Thats how we control our borders

 

[BigGully]

Well we will have to wait and see, any good will that is left in France might dissipate after a brexit yes vote. I don't think people realize how things they take for granted today eg free movement. the right to work and live in EU states will change if we decide to leave. The we will be able to control our own borders argument is Bullshit. We control them already. Hence we don't have camps in the UK as in France. The main issue for the leave campaign as far as I can see is no-one actually knows the consequences of leaving. You talk about gullibility, isn't is a bit gullible to vote for something when you have no idea of the outcome of what you are voting for?

You really do not have to look back too far to a time when it was just a small set of European countries without such a political union you know, I do not know how old you are, but if you care to divulge your adult life in years then you probably think it has been like this for generations, it hasnt.

So there are many of us that actually know what might be the consequences of leaving and on balance it seems considerably better than staying within a system that perhaps you have only known .....

 

[beorhthelm]

We have an agreement with the EU. Not in the EU no agreement. There would be huge pressure on the French Govt to clear the camps and move the problem. They would be able to do this legally if we are night signed up to the EU Treaty.

legally they are supposed to be detaining and processing asylum seekers, they are not supposed to "move the problem on". they are currently doing the right thing in Calais, with an additional bilateral agreement with UK to pay for the policing. if those immigrants turned up at Dover we'd legally be entitled to deport them (after the inevitable claims and appeals) to the last country of transit that is considered safe, France.

everyone seems to ignore Schengen agreement for borders is an arrangement made outside of the EU institutions, and that we (and the Irish) are not in it. EU rules are that EU citizens may travel freely, not that this must be without any form of passport control. the upshot of this is confusion and an EU that cant coordinate on boarder policy.