[Brighton] New cycle lane a259 Brighton

[BN41Albion]

I'll try and check it out on my way to work today, I did see parts of it on my way home last night but I ended up going along the cycle lane on Maderia Drive instead as I usually go along the undercliff walk when it's quiet.

Do we know where the most easterly point of this new lane is meant to be? I was riding along the A259 yesterday but from Lower Rock Gardens the traffic was at a standstill so couldn't actually get to the new lane which kind of negates the point.

I could theoretically ride to work every day but in reality that just isn't feasible and coming from Peacehaven I don't really have many options of what route to take when I do have to take the car.

This is my point. The east end of town and Saltdean /Peacehaven mean that that stretch of road is always going to be busy with traffic flow with people trying to reach town and vice versa.

Going to cause huge congestion without a doubt, as it has already started to, and also very very ill thought out what with a major hospital just off the main road and ambulances frequently using that stretch of road.

 

[Stat Brother]

and there could be some possibilities in that Stato, but it’s not the complete answer. There are several areas where it falls flat.

let’s start with a typical day where a given supplier has to send delivery lorries into town. Let’s talk about a dray sized lorry, making multiple, 23-35 deliveries a day. so there are huge time restriction as you could get them all done before 10.

you have to take into account the opening hours of the customers. Our customer based is very varied as are so many other businesses.

Many customers have restrictions as to when you are allowed to deliver

So let’s say they Drive to Brighton, start the earliest deliveries that their customer base affords, let’s say the earliest is 7.30, of which there are very few. in those two and a half hours they may get say 10 deliveries done, if they do well. What do they now do with the remaining 20?

The amount of deliveries they can do per hour is reducing, particularly now with the idiotic restrictions placed around the lanes, including removing a few loading bays and reducing the width of the road. It’s proving that frequently they arrive to where they need to deliver and find another lorry there, they have to go off and try and find somewhere else. So that particular council policy has now started to increase pollution.

So, back to the residual 20 drops, I assume that as they have not been allowed to drive into town between 10 they now have to come back at 4. What would they do in between hours? where would they park up?

It’s now 4. They are now trying to deliver to restaurants, pubs, etc. Many of those do not want deliveries trundling through when they are open to customers, many don’t have access other than front doors.

Forgetting that, many customers close at 5, let’s say offices, doctors, etc. Not all have staff beyond those hours, neither do they have them before 9.

That means there’s a vast amount of customers where you would have an hour to deliver to inside these restricted permitted driving hours. All very well if you only have one or two, but if you’ve 8,9,10? Then add in that these are not all going to be next door to each other, may be Hove, Roedean, Cardenas, Laines, Preston. Moving between all of those takes time, and longer now since the amount of traffic lanes has been reduced.

Stato, I’m not picking an argument here, just trying to show a few, of many, logistical issues that these guys face daily.

I agree something has to change, but it’s not as simple as just banning vehicles or imposing restrictive hours. What is it? Lord knows and it’s a conundrum that’s going to take a lot of working together. The councils green utopian plan of just suck it up isn’t going to help, neither is either the cyclist lobby or the car driver making digging in and throwing ‘oh well tough’ statements at each other.

Change.

Sure the gammons chained to their cars won't ever change, threads on here prove that, loud and clear.

But everyone else won't just sit there 'yeah but, yeah but' they'll just get on and make it work just like:-

New York
Paris
LA
Miami
Vancouver
Delft
Utrecht
Bogota
Mexico City

and plenty of other cities lucky enough to not require deliveries.

 

[BN41Albion]

Change.

Sure the gammons chained to their cars won't ever change, threads on here prove that, loud and clear.

But everyone else won't just sit there 'yeah but, yeah but' they'll just get on and make it work just like:-

New York
Paris
LA
Miami
Vancouver
Delft
Utrecht
Bogota
Mexico City

and plenty of other cities lucky enough to not require deliveries.

All those cities have extensive alternative public transport networks across the city.

Your constant use the term 'gammon' to describe someone who uses a car is pathetic. Just because I think this idea is ludricous and ill thought out does not mean I'm all for a greener environment. My opinion is that this idea will make the environment worse because of the lack of alternative transport or routes for those who can't simply switch to using a bike. And that there is a major hospital just off the main road. How do you not understand that?

 

[Acker79]

Never mind that, I'm hoping for THIS (although it may have to be socially distanced for a while)

View attachment 127150

I'm pretty sure I've seen one of them, or similar, by the North Laine Pub (?). Probably last summer.

 

[Stat Brother]

All those cities have extensive alternative public transport networks across the city.

Your constant use the term 'gammon' to describe someone who uses a car is pathetic. Just because I think this idea is ludricous and ill thought out does not mean I'm all for a greener environment. My opinion is that this idea will make the environment worse because of the lack of alternative transport or routes for those who can't simply switch to using a bike. How do you not understand that?

There is no other way to describe those in this country who constantly block any kind of move away from their sacred car.

Do you know how many women car drivers I have got into an altercation with while cycling?
None.

Care to guess how many kids?
A few

Pensioners?
None

Middle aged white men with red faces and fat bellies?
95%


Just read every single cycling thread and cross reference it with Brexit et al.
All the negativity comes from the same place.


As said, I try to see both sides, after all I am a car driver.
I try to look for the common ground.
I try to ignore the blatant stupidity and rank hypocrisy.


Yet the bottom line is the Luddites can't cope with change and will do anything to stop it.


Occasionally there's light at the end of the tunnel.
Occasionally devote car drivers appear on 'geeks' extolling the virtues of there new found love of cycling.

Which is the whole point.

Build it and they will come.

 

[Guinness Boy]

There is no other way to describe those in this country who constantly block any kind of move away from their sacred car.

Do you know how many women car drivers I have got into an altercation with while cycling?
None.

Care to guess how many kids?
A few

Pensioners?
None

Middle aged white men with red faces and fat bellies?
95%


Just read every single cycling thread and cross reference it with Brexit et al.
All the negativity comes from the same place.


As said, I try to see both sides, after all I am a car driver.
I try to look for the common ground.
I try to ignore the blatant stupidity and rank hypocrisy.


Yet the bottom line is the Luddites can't cope with change and will do anything to stop it.


Occasionally there's light at the end of the tunnel.
Occasionally devote car drivers appear on 'geeks' extolling the virtues of there new found love of cycling.

Which is the whole point.

Build it and they will come.

A good defence of your position.

I think all those "confrontation with cyclist" videos on youtube tie up with what you're saying. Driver always seems to be a white male over 35 who has seen better days.

"Build it and they will come"? My experience with the Old Shoreham Road cock up would suggest you need to modify that.

"Build it in the right place and they will come". More cycling? Yes. And the seafront is a perfect place for it. There's already a cycling lane but it's too small and we need to discourage people from driving to and parking at the beach.

A dual carriageway that was already a two mile tailback during the school run? Idiotic.

 

[Stat Brother]

A dual carriageway that was already a two mile tailback during the school run? Idiotic.

The school run is THE journey that cars must be encouraged away from.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

All those cities have extensive alternative public transport networks across the city.

Your constant use the term 'gammon' to describe someone who uses a car is pathetic. Just because I think this idea is ludricous and ill thought out does not mean I'm all for a greener environment. My opinion is that this idea will make the environment worse because of the lack of alternative transport or routes for those who can't simply switch to using a bike. And that there is a major hospital just off the main road. How do you not understand that?

Yes, there’s a big difference between ideology and practicality. Unfortunately we have an imbalance of these traits on the council and this will only cause more chaos.

 

[A mex eyecan]

Change.

Sure the gammons chained to their cars won't ever change, threads on here prove that, loud and clear.

But everyone else won't just sit there 'yeah but, yeah but' they'll just get on and make it work just like:-

New York
Paris
LA
Miami
Vancouver
Delft
Utrecht
Bogota
Mexico City

and plenty of other cities lucky enough to not require deliveries.

Oh Stato,

even when anyone tries to highlight specific issues and concerned all you can so is come back with sarcastic retort. Gammons, your seemingly favourite put down just typifies the all the problems we face in trying to resolve,and ultimately find the change you and we all so desperately seek. Can’t you see that your I’m not listening put downs are as much of the problem of trying to find resolutions as the ‘gammon, your word not mine’ you so repeatedly insult.

I’ll pull out of trying any form of conversation with you on this subject, not because i don’t have have many other comments, thoughts and desire to help in finding resolve, but because I just give up talking to a wall.

All I would say is that I’ll follow the conversation with interest and look forward to you showing specific examples that these other cities actually do and implement, rather than just saying New York etc etc don’t have problems.

Not having ever visited any of them my not qualified to know, or indeed answer, so please do show them. I’m as keen as you to explore, and, if the are feasible, use systems and devices that help eliminate the mess we currently live with, So as I say above, I don’t know of them, I’d really genuinely like to see them, You though must know what they are so please do share.

As I say, not looking for any argument, I just joined a debate in order to try and put the other side problems and to help join with you and all other willing to have i put into finding solutions. I leave it none the wiser as I’ve not seen any systems, just heard more insults and generalists that Amsterdam don’t this Amsterdam do that.

 

[BN41Albion]

There is no other way to describe those in this country who constantly block any kind of move away from their sacred car.

Do you know how many women car drivers I have got into an altercation with while cycling?
None.

Care to guess how many kids?
A few

Pensioners?
None

Middle aged white men with red faces and fat bellies?
95%


Just read every single cycling thread and cross reference it with Brexit et al.
All the negativity comes from the same place.


As said, I try to see both sides, after all I am a car driver.
I try to look for the common ground.
I try to ignore the blatant stupidity and rank hypocrisy.


Yet the bottom line is the Luddites can't cope with change and will do anything to stop it.


Occasionally there's light at the end of the tunnel.
Occasionally devote car drivers appear on 'geeks' extolling the virtues of there new found love of cycling.

Which is the whole point.

Build it and they will come.

You're clearly not prepared to listen to my points and others, who are also clearly not gammons by your definition, but people concerned pollution and traffic will worsen with this ill thought out, rushed through idea

 

[Guinness Boy]

The school run is THE journey that cars must be encouraged away from.

Again, I don't disagree but there are nuances, like anything in life, and the OSR in Hove and Portslade is one.

I walk my daughter to school up Church / Trafalgar Road and over the OSR. At that time of the morning that route is full of buses, vans and many, many lorries going to Shoreham Port. The pavement is narrow and the way the roundabout was done at Shelldale - supposedly to make things safer / greener - has turned that bit of it into a death trap for pedestrians.

Many choose to drive their kids up that road rather than walk and I can't blame them. Ostensibly it is safer. However, it's sometimes my daughter's only exercise of the day and you can at least go through Vale Park, the graveyard and Viccy Park to escape the worst bits if you don't mind it taking longer.

Cycling up that road would be tanamount to suicide and there is literally no room for a cycle path.

Now, if you're telling me that building a cycle lane a quarter of a mile away that reduces a dual carriageway going to Brighton to a single lane is going to stop steel / shipping lorries going to Shoreham Port in rush hour I'm not going to believe you.

I've seen Doris's dropping their little ones out of the back of a 4x4 when they live 200 yards away on the sidestreets, so I know where you're coming from, but battles need to be picked and with OSR the council have picked the wrong one.

 

[Stat Brother]

Oh Stato,

even when anyone tries to highlight specific issues and concerned all you can so is come back with sarcastic retort. Gammons, your seemingly favourite put down just typifies the all the problems we face in trying to resolve,and ultimately find the change you and we all so desperately seek. Can’t you see that your I’m not listening put downs are as much of the problem of trying to find resolutions as the ‘gammon, your word not mine’ you so repeatedly insult.

I’ll pull out of trying any form of conversation with you on this subject, not because i don’t have have many other comments, thoughts and desire to help in finding resolve, but because I just give up talking to a wall.

All I would say is that I’ll follow the conversation with interest and look forward to you showing specific examples that these other cities actually do and implement, rather than just saying New York etc etc don’t have problems.

Not having ever visited any of them my not qualified to know, or indeed answer, so please do show them. I’m as keen as you to explore, and, if the are feasible, use systems and devices that help eliminate the mess we currently live with, So as I say above, I don’t know of them, I’d really genuinely like to see them, You though must know what they are so please do share.

As I say, not looking for any argument, I just joined a debate in order to try and put the other side problems and to help join with you and all other willing to have i put into finding solutions. I leave it none the wiser as I’ve not seen any systems, just heard more insults and generalists that Amsterdam don’t this Amsterdam do that.

Because I've done this a thousand times over, on here.
I've been all nice and consolatory.
I provide evidence and counter arguments.

All of which gets mocked as the rambling of a yogurt knitted sandal loon.


Anyone with any desire to find resolution will.
Everyone that doesn't will just sit in their cars moaning about all the traffic oblivious to the fact THEY ARE THE TRAFFIC.


Look at the work of:-

Modacity
Get around. Safely.
Urban Cycling Institute.
UrbanThoughts
https://road.cc/category/topics/crime-legal - Look at that daily, for the rest of the month and you'll have a clear picture of why I've decided to call this as it is.

 

[WilburySeagull]

We desparately need to get away from the motorist v cy list war. In pratice an awful lot of us are both. I agree the council need a longer term plan for freeing the city of gridlock and pollution. The problem is Boris has offered a sort of emergency fund that the council have to use now for specific cycle related purposes. And by the way for those abusing the greens over this the council was labour led when it started.

I slightly quarrel with those saying there is no good east to west public transport. There are a number of options:
The no1 from mile oak to whitehawk goes straight through the centre kemptown and the hospital.
The no2 from Shoreham goes through the centre onto Woodingdean and Rottingdean.

The 700 uses the seafront from Shoreham to Hove then goes through the centre.

Of course public transport could be better but compared with some other places ours is not too bad.

 

[beorhthelm]

I agree something has to change, but it’s not as simple as just banning vehicles or imposing restrictive hours. What is it? Lord knows and it’s a conundrum that’s going to take a lot of working together. The councils green utopian plan of just suck it up isn’t going to help, neither is either the cyclist lobby or the car driver making digging in and throwing ‘oh well tough’ statements at each other.

other cities that impliment vehicle bans have exemptions for residents and deliveries, which is the obvious solution to this obvious problem. in this country for some reason we think you have to be all in, there can be no compromise, the motor vehicle must be prohibited.

 

[Stat Brother]

Again, I don't disagree but there are nuances, like anything in life, and the OSR in Hove and Portslade is one.

I walk my daughter to school up Church / Trafalgar Road and over the OSR. At that time of the morning that route is full of buses, vans and many, many lorries going to Shoreham Port. The pavement is narrow and the way the roundabout was done at Shelldale - supposedly to make things safer / greener - has turned that bit of it into a death trap for pedestrians.

Many choose to drive their kids up that road rather than walk and I can't blame them. Ostensibly it is safer. However, it's sometimes my daughter's only exercise of the day and you can at least go through Vale Park, the graveyard and Viccy Park to escape the worst bits if you don't mind it taking longer.

Cycling up that road would be tanamount to suicide and there is literally no room for a cycle path.

Now, if you're telling me that building a cycle lane a quarter of a mile away that reduces a dual carriageway going to Brighton to a single lane is going to stop steel / shipping lorries going to Shoreham Port in rush hour I'm not going to believe you.

I've seen Doris's dropping their little ones out of the back of a 4x4 when they live 200 yards away on the sidestreets, so I know where you're coming from, but battles need to be picked and with OSR the council have picked the wrong one.

We had this discussion to the specific thread to that cycle path, my opinions haven't changed in the subsequent 2 weeks.

The OSR isn't fit of any purposes.
It's trying to do everything and is failing everything.

No road should be expected to be residential, recreational, retail, light industrial and heavy industry.

The road needs to lose x junctions.
Priority needs to be given to efficiently get traffic onto the A27.
While public transport etc need to be encouraged onto the coast road.

Just coning off a lane in order to get some government funding does nothing, much like the seafront.

But again much like the seafront, something has to be done because the road doesn't work in it's current state and it's only going to get worse.

 

[A mex eyecan]

other cities that impliment vehicle bans have exemptions for residents and deliveries, which is the obvious solution to this obvious problem. in this country for some reason we think you have to be all in, there can be no compromise, the motor vehicle must be prohibited.

Thanks Beorthellm. A positive example answer to a genuine concern. Indeed, if that were proposed then it would go some way into making it work. Indeed it would reduce non essential traffic and may even speed up the work flows of people trying to go about their daily work, on which we all in one way or another rely on.

Imagine our outrage if after a home match we all go to our locals for a few beers only to find them dry as the dray lorry hadn’t been able to deliver because he was banned. I am jesting here by the way.

 

[Stat Brother]

You're clearly not prepared to listen to my points and others, who are also clearly not gammons by your definition, but people concerned pollution and traffic will worsen with this ill thought out, rushed through idea

How many times do you have to be told.

It's a 'rushed idea' because central government have said we'll give you £x, to improve/build a cycling infrastructure on the condition we see your plans and they are implemented with x DAYS of the money granted'.

I personally don't agree.
I think everyone needs to be bought along.
I think this needs to be done with a considerable amount of 'joined up thinking'.

But then again I wouldn't have believed the country would stop for 3 months.
Cars would become almost a novelty.
Silence - oh my god the silence - just how quiet was it?


So bollox to it, the car lobby will never agree, so do it anyway.
You never know some good might come from this as it sure as hell will never come from playing nicely.

 

[boik]

I think one or two posts have mentioned the parties of the council...

It's a ridiculous idea that is going to cause snarled up traffic and much more pollution because its fanciful to think everyone will ditch cars and cycle when that's not an option for thousands and we don't have a decent public transport system to use instead to get across the city easily and quickly. That's all I'm concerned about

I read somewhere this is all supposed to be 'temporary'. Wtf, how does that work, and why?? Makes no sense to me

I don't get this "No decent public transport" business. I live outside Brighton, but come in fairly often. Walk to my local station, train to Brighton and then buy a rover bus ticket and hop on and off the bus all day. Where are people going where there are no buses? When you live in the country you can use this argument, but not in Brighton.

 

[BN41Albion]

Oh Stato,

even when anyone tries to highlight specific issues and concerned all you can so is come back with sarcastic retort. Gammons, your seemingly favourite put down just typifies the all the problems we face in trying to resolve,and ultimately find the change you and we all so desperately seek. Can’t you see that your I’m not listening put downs are as much of the problem of trying to find resolutions as the ‘gammon, your word not mine’ you so repeatedly insult.

I’ll pull out of trying any form of conversation with you on this subject, not because i don’t have have many other comments, thoughts and desire to help in finding resolve, but because I just give up talking to a wall.

All I would say is that I’ll follow the conversation with interest and look forward to you showing specific examples that these other cities actually do and implement, rather than just saying New York etc etc don’t have problems.

Not having ever visited any of them my not qualified to know, or indeed answer, so please do show them. I’m as keen as you to explore, and, if the are feasible, use systems and devices that help eliminate the mess we currently live with, So as I say above, I don’t know of them, I’d really genuinely like to see them, You though must know what they are so please do share.

As I say, not looking for any argument, I just joined a debate in order to try and put the other side problems and to help join with you and all other willing to have i put into finding solutions. I leave it none the wiser as I’ve not seen any systems, just heard more insults and generalists that Amsterdam don’t this Amsterdam do that.

I did chuckle at some of those cities mentioned which have huge traffic issues to this day.

Completely agree, feels like talking to a wall. Seemingly, believing that the council are just hoping for the best and haven't thought through huge issues such as no alternate routes or adequate public transport, or the fact that there is a major hospital which frequently uses that road, makes us gammons.

 

[WilburySeagull]

I really dont get the no public transport argument. As was said by someone else you can argue this in rural areas but not in the city where public transport is good if a bit expensive. I dont think those making the poor public transport arguement will ever be satisfied unless they get a door to door public service.