[Albion] Mr Micheal Salisbury

[Icy Gull]

Fun fact: the lino who bailed him out is from....Brighton.

Is there a photo of him rolling his eyes?

 

[Lady Whistledown]

And he sends off the Sheff Utd keeper !

Which was the correct decision, to be fair. Keeper realised he'd screwed up and deliberately brought Tella down with no attempt to play the ball. Denial of a clear goalscoring opportunity, no attempt to play the ball= red card.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Is there a photo of him rolling his eyes?

I used to know him via work: I've no idea if he's actually an Albion fan as we only ever used to talk about the games he was involved in, and even then not in great detail. I just know he's from round these parts.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I didn’t watch but didn’t he try and award a penalty for a foul 2 yards outside the box and be corrected by a lino?

He sought advice from the lino. Or accepted it. That has to be good.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

His performance last night is irrelevant. He shouldn't have been there -for the level of incompetance on Saturday, sanctions are warranted - and being given another job stright away isn't a sanction!

Innocent until proven guilty?

Perhaps the ref on the pitch, the one who makes the final decision, is where the buck stops?

And perhaps.....we shall never know....

 

[Icy Gull]

He sought advice from the lino. Or accepted it. That has to be good.

You are a serious ref and VAR apologist at the moment. Giving a penalty two yards outside the box SCREAMS “you don’t know what you’re doing” but carry on with your meek acceptance of what went on this weekend

I’ll stay fecking fuming, not that it will do any good. Did I tell you that I detest injustice that can be avoided, in all walks of life?

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Referee Michael Salisbury has been dropped for the next round of Premier League fixtures.

VAR: Referee Michael Salisbury dropped for the next round of Premier League fixtures

Referee Michael Salisbury, the VAR official who failed to award Brighton a penalty against Tottenham, is dropped for the next round of Premier League fixtures.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Lady Whistledown]

You are a serious ref and VAR apologist at the moment. Giving a penalty two yards outside the box SCREAMS “you don’t know what you’re doing” but carry on with your meek acceptance of what went on this weekend

I’ll stay fecking fuming, not that it will do any good. Did I tell you that I detest injustice that can be avoided, in all walks of life?

It wasn't two yards out: two feet at an absolute push.

It was hardly Taricco at St Mary's outside-the-box.

 

[GT49er]

Innocent until proven guilty?

Perhaps the ref on the pitch, the one who makes the final decision, is where the buck stops?

And perhaps.....we shall never know....

Guilty perhas not the right word, but the fact rthat his boss has had to make a formal apology and admit he got it wrong is a clear verdict.

 

[Springal]

Guilty perhas not the right word, but the fact rthat his boss has had to make a formal apology and admit he got it wrong is a clear verdict.

Did he say Attwell got it wrong ? Or VAR?

 

[Blues Guitarist]

What grinds most fans gears are it's fine for Webb to talk to club blah blah blah.

Webb has talked to the club before after acknowledged VAR mistakes. De Zerbi seemed to think that was a waste of time. He's been proved right. And here we are a few weeks later with 5 major errors going against us in one game. It's getting worse, not better.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You are a serious ref and VAR apologist at the moment. Giving a penalty two yards outside the box SCREAMS “you don’t know what you’re doing” but carry on with your meek acceptance of what went on this weekend

I’ll stay fecking fuming, not that it will do any good. Did I tell you that I detest injustice that can be avoided, in all walks of life?

Come on. I have posted many posts about the debacle. In a couple I mooted walking away from the game, it was that bad, and I was so upset.

I can bear grudges (Whiteside) but I can walk away from the emotional heat quite quickly. When you've been through the ups and downs of my life, believe me, you must.

So I'm left with curiosity about what happened, and hope the facts come out, so fixes can be made so it is less likely to happen again. Learning from 'mistakes' and all that.

Unfortunately with three apologies, the learning process seems not to have begun (or it is being done in private, which is understandable if unsatisfying).

Red caps always have a peculiar position in an organization. Referees and their association can't engage with cosying up to clubs. I can understand them not starting a root and branch review 'simply' to appease one club.

However....presented slightly differently, this is what they need to do.

Maybe if they don't task the sort of chaps currently pondering the crimes of Johnson, some conclusions and changes implemented before the end of the decade are possible.

I'm not overly hopeful.

So as @Bozza said, all we can do is leave it to the club to pursue this the way they see best. I'm done emoting. And I won't be walking away from the game either. Not yet, anyway.

All the best, O red hot flame of Icy Gull

 

[HankSkorpio]

Referee Michael Salisbury has been dropped for the next round of Premier League fixtures.

VAR: Referee Michael Salisbury dropped for the next round of Premier League fixtures

Referee Michael Salisbury, the VAR official who failed to award Brighton a penalty against Tottenham, is dropped for the next round of Premier League fixtures.

www.bbc.co.uk

but Stuart Attwell has been selected for this weekend's matches!!!

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Webb has talked to the club before after acknowledged VAR mistakes. De Zerbi seemed to think that was a waste of time. He's been proved right. And here we are a few weeks later with 5 major errors going against us in one game. It's getting worse, not better.

Howard Webb is a very erudite person who can show empathy but also assert himself well. He commanded a high degree of respect when he reffed games.

What he is missing now is that engagement with a very important group in the game, us the fans. We all appreciate how hard it is to ref games, many of us, me included have done or run the line in park games.

Currently they PGMOL are happy to have two ex-refs represent them on BT and Sky, that's as far as it goes. Week after week these two pitch up and talk utter rubbish, they make B Johnson sound credible. You can't defend the indefensible. If Webb was prepared to put himself in front of the cameras with a few pundits who keep to the narrative (keep Jim "my friend" White away) and allow him to respond to the shit storm that currently exists.

We don't want excuses or to have our intelligence insulted but I do think we need to know why such obvious infringements are not being acted on. We can't have instances where a lino gives such a close handball decision from 40 yards away and the VAR uphold this as it's not an obvious mistake yet them do the complete opposite moments later when there's just not evidence to go back on a decision made by on field ref for the second goal.

Added to this the very way Attwell dismissed three penalties he clearly informed everyone straight away he wasn't going to the penalty. I actually believe even if he had been told he made a mistake he would have refused to go to the pitch side screen. Can he do that Webb? We will never know.

 

[Si Gull]

If a provider (PL) fails to deliver a fit for purpose product (Spurs v Brighton, due to faulty VAR process), does the paying customer have a right of redress under the Consumer Rights Act? At the very least you'd want a clear explanation of why you were provided with a service that certainly wasn't 'carried out with care and skill'. Asking for a friend that spent a small fortune on ticket/travel to the game only to be let down by substandard service/product.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Did he say Attwell got it wrong ? Or VAR?

With my lovely new cool head, I have done some digging.

The apology was for the Mitoma incident only, and the apology was for the error without explaining who was at fault, as if it were an error of procedure:

“Following Brighton & Hove Albion’s match at Tottenham Hotspur, PGMOL and the Club have been in contact regarding a number of incidents during the aforementioned fixture. During that dialogue, PGMOL acknowledged that an error was made in not awarding a second-half penalty for a foul on Kaoru Mitoma. The key match incidents from this fixture will be reviewed in line with our normal processes."

My view is because the final decision is always the referee's (apart from offside) the buck should stop with the ref, so if anyone deserves a reprimand it is the ref. However there may be mitigation, and grounds for focusing on the competence of the VAR official, as explained below. This post may seem tedious and pedantic but I think that it is important to separate possible honest errors with egregious breaches of protocol and, in one incidence, inexplicable incompetence. Maybe my ponderings may have some value....

With the penalty shouts, the VAR referee would have assumed the ref saw the Mitoma one (he was right in front of it) and therefore would not have called the ref out. But this was a clear and obvious error so he should have called the referee out. The VAR ref's judgement was certainly at fault twice, this incident, and the second disallowed goal (explained below). What he should have done is asked the ref to look at the screen (Mitoma pen) and use his eyes better (the second Dunk shove penalty - which 'could' be an honest mistake) but the VAR ref could no more see a handball with the second disallowed goal (Danny's deflected shot) than in the famous 'Murray's cock' episode, I would argue. If you can't see a handball you can't give it. The on field ref could have asked to see the replay, but didn't because the VAR official would have sounded certain (I assume). Keeping all this and only this in mind, I would be very interested to invite the VAR ref to go through those replays again to explain how he became certain - certain the Danny goal was deflect in by a handball, and certain Mitoma wasn't fouled.

The Dunk shirt pull was not a clear and obvious error (although it looks like an 80% likelihood a penalty should have been awarded). The VAR person acted logically there, but it was nevertheless questionable and if it were me I would have asked the ref to take a look at the replay.

If the ref decides to accept the advice of VAR about a handball without checking the video, it has to be the fault of the referee, unless the VAR official is vehement. This is an issue that should be pursued with respect to the second penalty episode.

Only offside decisions are made by VAR. They are supposed to be unequivocal (although as we have seen this requires that the VAR referee is doing his job carefully - and human error here is not forgivable in my opinion).

This explains why we got an apology only for the Mitoma incident. I don't like it, but it is just about defensible. The other decisions were probably (fist disallowed goal), certainly (second disallowed goal) and probably (Dunk penalty) wrong but they are all errors of judgement rather than errors of procedure (except that I will argue below that the second disallowed goal also looks like a procedure error). One of these is beyond credibility, with a VAR decision based on guesswork. A VAR decision that overruled a goal awarded by the on field referee.

So my questions would be these
1. To the VAR referee - why did you not alert the on-pitch ref to the foul on Mitoma (which PGMOL now admit should have been given as a penalty)?
- If he says didn't see it then he is admitting incompetence
- If he says he saw it and didn't ask the ref to look at a replay he should be asked whether he disagrees with PGMOL's verdict or admits he is incompetent.
2. To the VAR ref I would ask how certain he was that there was a handball with Danny's deflected goal
If he was certain, what does he think now?
- If he remains certain he should be asked to explain why. If it was a judgement call he did the wrong thing. Only the ref can make judgement calls so the Var man should have asked the ref to watch a replay. VAR refs should advise on judgement calls not make them. And the only judgement call they can offer is the ref did NOT make a clear and obvious error. In which case the VAR official did not follow correct procedure.
- If he now admits he made an error he should be asked to explain how he decided to persuade the on-field ref he should disallow the goal. If he was vehement then he is admitting he was incompetent. If he was lukewarm he should have asked the ref to check the recording. In fact if he was lukewarm the ref should have taken charge and sought to review the video.
If he was not certain, why did he not ask the referee to check the recording?
- If he says this is for the referee to decide then it is the on field ref who was ultimately responsible for the error, due to a procedural error of accepting a lukewatm suggestion to overrule his decision to award a goal based on the VAR refs suspicions of handball. In fact at that point the on field ref should have concluded he had not made an error (whether marginal or clear and obvious) and awarded the goal.

If anyone wants to forward this analysis (if they agree with it, and have the skill set to be able to judge it) then I'm happy for them to do so.

Apologies - I didn't have enough time to be succinct.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

but Stuart Attwell has been selected for this weekend's matches!!!

Being objective here, but if the onfield official doesn't see it or is guided by his assistance (like for the Mitoma handball) he will then have to rely on this VAR assistant to properly assess the incident and either confirm the initial onfield decision, over-rule it, or refer the ref to the monitor to decide for themself and that is where it failed on Saturday

Can Attwell then be held responsible if the VAR official has deemed there to be nothing worthy or review by the ref, or saw enough themselves to say to Attwell to overturn his decision? especially if it later revealed by the PGMOL to have been a mistake by VAR not to?

VAR is meant to be a safety net to catch anything major that should be acted upon but is missed for the 4 areas it was introduced to cover, and to correct those significant mistakes make (which are easy to get wrong when it happens in real time and you get one look at it - and that is why VAR has multiple angles and slow mo, etc to pick up on and correct it)

The onfield ref has to rely on VAR to get these things correct if they are missed, so in this case, he was let down by them too on Saturday.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Had wondered if they voice or video record the “VAR room” to get a conclusive understanding of events? I’m assuming they must do due to what is at stake and to protect themselves if there was any criminal investigation (not saying there’s one here to be clear!)

In an ideal world the transcript would be made available to help us understand how the outcome was reached however I suspect the PGMOL is not going to throw any individual(s) under the bus contrary to any employment / privacy laws.

We can only speculate who was at fault as to who’s available for premier league duties this weekend and who isn’t (despite being ok for the championship last night)

It’s shit but don’t think there is any recourse here for the club or fan

We’ve suffered!

 

[Clive Walker]

Incident 1 (mitoma handball). Blame goes to lino first and Var for not correcting it. Ref went with Var
Incident 2 (Danny goal/Alexis handball). Blame goes to Var for finding something that could not be deemed concrete/100% fact. Ref went with Var
Incident 3 (Mitoma Penatly). Blame goes to Var for not reviewing properly. Ref could easily miss this one which I guess he did. Ref went with Var
Incident 4 (Dunk Penalty). Was it even reviewed?

All in all the safety net is to blame and you can't really blame the ref. Var should have told the ref to review but didn;t

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Incident 1 (mitoma handball). Blame goes to lino first and Var for not correcting it. Ref went with Var
Incident 2 (Danny goal/Alexis handball). Blame goes to Var for finding something that could not be deemed concrete/100% fact. Ref went with Var
Incident 3 (Mitoma Penatly). Blame goes to Var for not reviewing properly. Ref could easily miss this one which I guess he did. Ref went with Var
Incident 4 (Dunk Penalty). Was it even reviewed?

All in all the safety net is to blame and you can't really blame the ref. Var should have told the ref to review but didn;t

And
The handball in the area?
Two footed challenge?
March last Man foul?