[News] Mr Cummings and the COVID inquiry.

[WATFORD zero]

Watching this morning, he's asked a question based on evidence and then lies, his lies are pointed out to him and he lies again or blames his infamous poor memory. He's now saying the facts being presented are incorrect because he remembers other statistics which he can't be specific about as he doesn't remember the detail

Watching this morning, it is absolutely incredible how such a patently obvious and piss poor liar managed to take in so many. But here we are

 

[Pevenseagull]

The chap who's taken over the questioning for a bit is very poor.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Johnson now admitting that when he said he was slow to act (PPE etc) this was all perfectly understandable because they (he) didn't realise the threat. This seems to be his line of defence - that all his bad decisions were in fact good decisions because, in his opinion, they were the best decisions at the time with the information available. If his defense is going to be based on his opinion then let's just free him now and close the inquiry.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The chap who's taken over the questioning for a bit is very poor.

Indeed. His voice is shaking with anger. Johnson running rings around him with lie after lie.

 

[Lenny Rider]

Firstly sincere condolences to those who have had their families and friends affected by Covid. Driving around today R5 was on most of the day and i think that it's fair to say that Mr Cummings is no fan of Johnson or Hancock, but don't worry no stone will be left unturned and that lessons have/will be learned and therefore we can all sleep soundly safe in the knowledge that our government of the day is on the case.

How does mr Cummings earn a living now?

I'd imagine alarm bells in every HR dept in the country would ring once his CV landed on the desk.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Johnson has just fallen into a massive trap. He is now busking because he doesn't realize what's happened.

In September he referred back to the errors of March, having earlier today claimed that everything he did in March was correct and appropriate.

It shows (according to he cross examiner) he understood the problem, was caught between stools, delayed a decision and it all wentto bollocks. Again.

His reply to that accusation is 'total rubbish'.

 

[Pevenseagull]

Indeed. His voice is shaking with anger. Johnson running rings around him with lie after lie.

If Johnson was half as bright as he thinks he is there was an easy counter punch when peacock tie seemed to suggest that Poland was some sort of third rate medical and scientific backwater.

 

[Pevenseagull]

Johnson has just fallen into a massive trap. He is now busking because he doesn't realize what's happened.

In September he referred back to the errors of March, having earlier today claimed that everything he did in March was correct and appropriate.

It shows (according to he cross examiner) he understood the problem, was caught between stools, delayed a decision and it all wentto bollocks. Again.

His reply to that accusation is 'total rubbish'.

Was building to a rope a dope moment but the ref blows for half time.

I would try to squeeze an extra sporting metaphor in there but I'm no Prof Van Tam.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

If Johnson was half as bright as he thinks he is there was an easy counter punch when peacock tie seemed to suggest that Poland was some sort of third rate medical and scientific backwater.

Really? That Poland is a first world nation like the UK?

The inquisitor said 'Bulgaria and Poland'. Even Johnson wouldn't be so foolish as to say 'well, forget about Bulgaria, but whatabout Poland? Eh? Eh?'.

(Albeit if he had, he could then have gone on about "how important the Polish pilots were to that great British effort to repel Hitler, and we should give our thanks to such people, and I totally refuse your insinuation that the Polish are somehow inferior". Which is basically how he has responded to all the other questions).

 

[Pevenseagull]

Really? That Poland is a first world nation like the UK?

The inquisitor said 'Bulgaria and Poland'. Even Johnson wouldn't be so foolish as to say 'well, forget about Bulgaria, but whatabout Poland? Eh? Eh?'.

(Albeit if he had, he could then have gone on about "how important the Polish pilots were to that great British effort to repel Hitler, and we should give our thanks to such people, and I totally refuse your insinuation that the Polish are somehow inferior". Which is basically how he has responded to all the other questions).

Fair point but then the chap jumped from big posh European countries to South Korea, just cherry picking nations for comparison. I think he was much better off focusing on the chaos.

I'd suggest that Poland as a whole is closer to a first world nation like the UK than Southern Italy is. Health outcomes many conditions are similar in Poland to the UK figures.

Anyway, don't know how reliable 'Our world in data' is but according to their figures Poland actually had a lower mortality rate than the UK.

COVID-19 pandemic death rates by country - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Fair point but then the chap jumped from big posh European countries to South Korea, just cherry picking nations for comparison. I think he was much better off focusing on the chaos.

I'd suggest that Poland as a whole is closer to a first world nation like the UK than Southern Italy is. Health outcomes many conditions are similar in Poland to the UK figures.

Anyway, don't know how reliable 'Our world in data' is but according to their figures Poland actually had a lower mortality rate than the UK.

COVID-19 pandemic death rates by country - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

South Korea was mentioned to show that you CAN be prepared - if you are prepared.

Johnson claimed we learned lessons from SARS, then claimed Korea were miles ahead of us because of their experience with SARS.

I am not sure it is fair to accuse the questioner of 'cherry picking' by mentioning (in context) South Korea, then yourself compare the UK with 'southern' Italy. The data that show our deaths were worse than all comparable nations includes a comparison with all of Italy. Italy of course is poorer than us, yet it had a slightly lower death rate (I would call it the same).

I wouldn't agree that Poland is comparable with the UK. If some of their health care outcomes are similar to those of the UK, perhaps that simply reflects the fact that some of our healthcare outcomes, like theirs, are poor.

The bottom line is that finishing in the middle of the death list for Europe, when we are 12th in the global list of incomes, is not consistent with Johnson's claims.

According to OECD, we are way above Poland in terms of income. As is Italy.

When you look at that, then look at this (below) it is hard to find anything to crow about:

 

[ROSM]

I am bound by confidentiality but working for a multinational company I had access to data and advice in jan that indicated a path and trajectory for the infection, when it would hit europe and the speed it would travel. It was regularly reviewed and was pretty much on the money.

Our own plans for offices, colleagues and customers were based on it and one of our advisors was also advising other major companies and public figures.

If little old me had that data and insight I am sure the govt did too. As a company you dont have the responsibility the govt has across healthcare, economy etc so decisions are easier for them than a govt but it would be wrong to say we didnt have insight we should have listened to or that we didnt understand it.

 

[Pevenseagull]

South Korea was mentioned to show that you CAN be prepared - if you are prepared.

Johnson claimed we learned lessons from SARS, then claimed Korea were miles ahead of us because of their experience with SARS.

I am not sure it is fair to accuse the questioner of 'cherry picking' by mentioning (in context) South Korea, then yourself compare the UK with 'southern' Italy. The data that show our deaths were worse than all comparable nations includes a comparison with all of Italy. Italy of course is poorer than us, yet it had a slightly lower death rate (I would call it the same).

I wouldn't agree that Poland is comparable with the UK. If some of their health care outcomes are similar to those of the UK, perhaps that simply reflects the fact that some of our healthcare outcomes, like theirs, are poor.

The bottom line is that finishing in the middle of the death list for Europe, when we are 12th in the global list of incomes, is not consistent with Johnson's claims.

According to OECD, we are way above Poland in terms of income. As is Italy.

View attachment 170906

When you look at that, then look at this (below) it is hard to find anything to crow about:


View attachment 170908

Good data, thanks for that and I realised that I was a bit wooly headed re the cherry picking as soon as I posted it but had a toasted sandwich nearing perfection on the go (cheese, ham and pickle).

 

[beorhthelm]

Johnson now admitting that when he said he was slow to act (PPE etc) this was all perfectly understandable because they (he) didn't realise the threat. This seems to be his line of defence - that all his bad decisions were in fact good decisions because, in his opinion, they were the best decisions at the time with the information available. If his defense is going to be based on his opinion then let's just free him now and close the inquiry.

well it is largely about opinons. all the information, documents, minutes, decisions are submitted to the inquiry. the testimony is much pseudo cross examination, "what did you mean by..." or worse "what did you think she meant...". it dissolves to heresay. there's not a lot of examination of fact, decision process or policy.

since raised also, and related, look at the deaths. there are stats showing we had lower cases than most of western Europe (per population). that makes the death rate even worse on a death/covid infection basis. is there any examination of why that would be? not so far, and would be a lot more usful than giving Johnson a platform so say he's terribly sorry, would do it differently etc.

 

[WATFORD zero]

well it is largely about opinons. all the information, documents, minutes, decisions are submitted to the inquiry. the testimony is much pseudo cross examination, "what did you mean by..." or worse "what did you think she meant...". it dissolves to heresay. there's not a lot of examination of fact, decision process or policy.

A short extract from this morning. And yet you still seem determined defend this horrendous individual who would throw anyone under the bus to try and lie his way through all facts, decision processes and policies presented to him.



I really can't imagine why

 

[beorhthelm]

A short extract from this morning. And yet you still seem determined defend this horrendous individual who would throw anyone under the bus to try and lie his way through all facts, decision processes and policies presented to him.



I really can't imagine why

how am i defending Johnson, saying i want more useful information, less waffle. what he said was on record already submitted, it's indefensible, move to the next section. if i wasnt clear, the Inquiry process seems to be largely about getting people involved to offer their opinions and views of information already submitted, taking literally years to do so, when they could get on with reporting on the findings.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

well it is largely about opinons. all the information, documents, minutes, decisions are submitted to the inquiry. the testimony is much pseudo cross examination, "what did you mean by..." or worse "what did you think she meant...". it dissolves to heresay. there's not a lot of examination of fact, decision process or policy.

since raised also, and related, look at the deaths. there are stats showing we had lower cases than most of western Europe (per population). that makes the death rate even worse on a death/covid infection basis. is there any examination of why that would be? not so far, and would be a lot more usful than giving Johnson a platform so say he's terribly sorry, would do it differently etc.

Interesting question.

My view is that it is hard to compare different nations because not only cases and deaths varied, but the way the information on each was collected and collated varied from nation to nation and from time to time. China being an extreme outlier there with implausibly low numbers throughout.

So, much as I would like to pour yet more ordure over the head of Johnson, I am disinclined to do so in respect to where we were on the death list. What I object to is Johnson's claims that we were the best in Europe at dealing with Covid (dog whistle: thanks to him and the fact we had left the EU). There is no evidence for this and, if any of the data can be taken as close to fact, evidence for the opposite. I just hate being lied to like that.

And also I am disinclined, presently, to attempt to work out what we could have done better (even though there are some obvious suggestions, and even though I have doubtless done so, many times, in the past). I am more interested in a light being shined on the rubric of government at the time, which by many accounts was chaotic, and fuelled by misrepresentation of facts about actions, decisions and process. And deliberately so because this is how Johnson operates (and is the main reason why his own party ditched him). This is the value of the inquiry.

All that said, Johnson seems to be enjoying this. His lugubrious delivery, his pedantry, his innocent inability to remember key damning events while acknowledging the possibility of them, and the fact that they were the product of honest hard working endeavour on behalf of the British people are all part of his performance. It wouldn't surprise me to find that he has had a raging boner during most of the proceedings.

 

[armchairclubber]

Jenny Harris needs her damehood taken away for even suggesting it.

By the way KG, just so I can understand your POV a little better
Do you think JH was more to blame than Johnson & Hancock?
Do you think it's possible she was nominated for a damehood because she was in agreement with senior Tory policy?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

So 'let the bodies pile up' was Johnson's way of raising an important issue that was in the minds of many people, er, that, er, and let me say that I apologize that parts of conversations on WhatsApp were inappropriately revealed, er to the public.

Unbelievable.

 

[WATFORD zero]

how am i defending Johnson, saying i want more useful information, less waffle. what he said was on record already submitted, it's indefensible, move to the next section. if i wasnt clear, the Inquiry process seems to be largely about getting people involved to offer their opinions and views of information already submitted, taking literally years to do so, when they could get on with reporting on the findings.

Are you saying you don't want the evidence submitted by various parties to be questioned ? What about situations as in the last two days when submitted evidence, from different sources has been completely contradictory ?