[News] MPs defecting to The Independent Group in parliament

[LlcoolJ]

Disagree. As others have said, it's certainly the catalyst but whatever your views are on Brexit, it's fairly universally acknowledged that:
a) the Tory party have made a mess of Brexit
b) the government IS being bullied by the ERG, who are a small pressure group and are wielding far too much power
c) Labour are doing an absolutely shit job of holding the government to account.

Shit shit shit shit SHIT

If everyone was doing their jobs properly, Brexit would be in the process of being delivered by the right people and who would then be held to account properly. Instead we have an incompetent, gutless remainer too scared to face up to the extremists now infecting her party, and an opposition too feeble to act as proper opposition to it all.

The whole country can see how useless the two main parties are - hats off to these 11 people for doing the right thing rather than keeping quiet for the sake of their own cosy careers.

Well ****ing said sir.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Almost every Labour leader gets judged as making the Labour Party unelectable. There has been a long tradition of smearing the current leadership, Foot, Kinnock, and Ed Milliband have all been told they have made the party unelectable. Tony Benn managed it without being elected leader even though many people thought he spoke sense.

David Milliband and Yvette Cooper would soon get the same treatment if they became leader.

The amazing con trick in society is that the Establishment manages to convince a majority of the electorate to vote against a party created in their interests time after time.

Mostly true (and a very good post) but the Labour Party does also have a TERRIBLE record of putting the wrong person forward as leader. Makes them easy targets for the right wing (massive majority) of the media to discredit.

See Corbyn, J.

The Labour membership is now totally out of sync with the majority of Labour voters, let alone the majority of people like me who never tie their vote to a party and decide at the time of an election who to vote for.

They do themselves no favours.

 

[mikeyjh]

I'm going to put my hand up as another Labour supporter who is appalled at the current leadership, as someone who has welcomed returning to policies such as re-privatising certain industries but can't believe what a hash they are making of building a consensus within the party and actually providing a good opposition. And now this. The people who have resigned are respected MP's who would have been part of the strong left coalition that should be a government-in-waiting.

In a sense you've hit the nail on the head by mentioning the re-privatisation of certain industries - Well Chris Leslie, for instance does not support such things, I'd be very surprised if the aforementioned councillor, given that she has defected to the Tories, does either. That's the problem with uniting the Labour party in the way you suggest, there are thinly veiled Tories out there, unfortunately, who like nice cosy ideas like a fairer society they will talk the talk but when push comes to shove, they'd never support Socialist policies. There's a fair few of that kind on here as well. I think they're called 'Centrists'.

 

[beorhthelm]

... There has been a long tradition of smearing the current leadership, Foot, Kinnock, and Ed Milliband have all been told they have made the party unelectable.

there's something in common between them... and Brown, Corbyn.
people give the media too much credit, ignoring they reflect the public as much as sell them something. we can believe there is a conspiracy, or accept maybe the electorate didnt like their manifestos?

 

[Biscuit]

In a sense you've hit the nail on the head by mentioning the re-privatisation of certain industries - Well Chris Leslie, for instance does not support such things, I'd be very surprised if the aforementioned councillor, given that she has defected to the Tories, does either. That's the problem with uniting the Labour party in the way you suggest, there are thinly veiled Tories out there, unfortunately, who like nice cosy ideas like a fairer society they will talk the talk but when push comes to shove, they'd never support Socialist policies. There's a fair few of that kind on here as well. I think they're called 'Centrists'.

Oh right. So you're another one that thinks if we're not left-left we're Tory Lites?

Honestly I'm sick to death of this attitude.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

there's something in common between them... and Brown, Corbyn.
people give the media too much credit, ignoring they reflect the public as much as sell them something. we can believe there is a conspiracy, or accept maybe the electorate didnt like their manifestos?

But the only way the (vast majority of) the public hears about manifesto / policy pledges is through the media. They dictate what the public is able to engage with and how is it presented to them. They don't hold the key, but the certainly hold one of the very important keys to the HoC.

 

[Bold Seagull]

there's something in common between them... and Brown, Corbyn.
people give the media too much credit, ignoring they reflect the public as much as sell them something. we can believe there is a conspiracy, or accept maybe the electorate didnt like their manifestos?

I think you're being naive if you don't accept the press bias in this country. Some would say Blair got elected not because of his manifesto, or policy changes within the party, but that he did enough to get Murdoch to support him. They didn't even give a crap about press responsibility 'It was the Sun wot won it' headline should have come as a stark reminder of the infuence of the media, not a celebratory front page headline the morning after an election result in 1992.

It isn't even a question of which party the papers support, the question for a fair press is, why do they need to pick a side in the first place? Any notion if impartiality and objectively is non existent, not even a pretence of it.

I can give you an answer, because the majority of the press is owned by an Australian, a Russian Oligarch, a Viscount and a pair of brothers. There is no conspiracy as you say, other than a few very rich owners having a very tight grip over their readerships.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

In a sense you've hit the nail on the head by mentioning the re-privatisation of certain industries - Well Chris Leslie, for instance does not support such things, I'd be very surprised if the aforementioned councillor, given that she has defected to the Tories, does either. That's the problem with uniting the Labour party in the way you suggest, there are thinly veiled Tories out there, unfortunately, who like nice cosy ideas like a fairer society they will talk the talk but when push comes to shove, they'd never support Socialist policies. There's a fair few of that kind on here as well. I think they're called 'Centrists'.

They'd vote for it though, in a unified party. It didn't need a Corbyn to get to that point. By the way, I consider myself a centrist, and don't think supporting privatization of railways and water is incompatible with being a centrist. I think centrists are further left than perhaps are given credit, but we need to win elections first.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

Brought together by their loathing of leave.

They are against the effects of neoliberalism.

They want to remain neoliberals.

An unsquareable circle.

 

[Titanic]

With politicians like this on offer... what the hell is the British public supposed to do?

[tweet]1098250673035071490[/tweet]

 

[mikeyjh]

They'd vote for it though, in a unified party. It didn't need a Corbyn to get to that point. By the way, I consider myself a centrist, and don't think supporting privatization of railways and water is incompatible with being a centrist. I think centrists are further left than perhaps are given credit, but we need to win elections first.

Difficult to argue with your first point, under the whip, but they fundamentally don't believe in, there is a difference there for me. I do find it difficult to imagine a centrist party nationalising utilities, maybe we'll find out one day!

To be honest, I probably was where you were in 1997 (not Borneo, actually Brighton) and it's not in anyway to suggest that my view is more matured or anything simply that I've changed my mind. The disappointment of Blair saw to that, not that it was all bad but I thought that was the move to the centre that got power and that things like bringing utilities back in to the public ownership would follow.

Hang on - You're saying 'privatising' I'm reading the opposite, I must be getting tired, or confused?

 

[cunning fergus]

They'd vote for it though, in a unified party. It didn't need a Corbyn to get to that point. By the way, I consider myself a centrist, and don't think supporting privatization of railways and water is incompatible with being a centrist. I think centrists are further left than perhaps are given credit, but we need to win elections first.

The underlying problem with the privatisation vs nationalisation debate that matters here (and with this group) is how does this land within the EU. Ignoring whether or not the EU competition/state aid rules would allow nationalised industries as of now the railways mail and utilities in the UK are “full fat” privatised.

This group will not be supporting a step back from that position, none of them wanted to prevent privatisation of the mail, simply put they are for the market not the state.

Ideologically speaking they are for the EU first and foremost. That’s the horse they will back to win elections.

 

[Giraffe]

Heidi (on the left) is a loss but I can't see many shedding too many tears over the other two.

Nice and sexist.

How? Only in your mind perhaps?

I was commenting on their abilities. Heidi is a fantastic politician who is very electable, the other two are a pair of moaners, with very little that is positive to add, just sideline Johnnies happy to criticise without coming up with anything constructive. Heidi is a loss to the Conservative party. Had the potential to go far.

 

[neilbard]

Heidi (on the left) is a loss but I can't see many shedding too many tears over the other two.

Nice and sexist.

How? Only in your mind perhaps?

I was commenting on their abilities. Heidi is a fantastic politician who is very electable, the other two are a pair of moaners, with very little that is positive to add, just sideline Johnnies happy to criticise without coming up with anything constructive. Heidi is a loss to the Conservative party. Had the potential to go far.

Johnnies

 

[Giraffe]

Johnnies

Not sure where that came from but at least they will be well protected.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Brought together by their loathing of leave.

They are against the effects of neoliberalism.

They want to remain neoliberals.

An unsquareable circle.

Don't believe that Joan Ryan left the Labour Party solely because of Brexit - her comments below with regards to a "culture of anti-Jewish racism" might enlighten you as to why she left.

But you keep your head buried in the sand and continue to claim there is no problem.

She was on Today this morning and her attack on Corbyn was incredibly scathing.



Joan Ryan has become the eighth Labour MP to quit the party in the past 48 hours, citing its tolerance of a "culture of anti-Jewish racism".

The Enfield North MP said she was "horrified, appalled and angered" by Labour's failure to tackle anti-Semitism, saying its leadership allowed "Jews to be abused with impunity".

Ms Ryan said she did not believe Jeremy Corbyn was fit to lead the country.

Seven other MPs quit on Monday to form the Independent Group in Parliament.

 

[Weststander]

there's something in common between them... and Brown, Corbyn.
people give the media too much credit, ignoring they reflect the public as much as sell them something. we can believe there is a conspiracy, or accept maybe the electorate didnt like their manifestos?

Great post.

For every Daily Mail, there’s the Mirror and 1000’s marxist vloggers and angry sixth formers tapping away with propaganda. It balances out. In between is the bulk of the UK electorate who’ve always been able to make up their own mind.

There is no evil right wing conspiracy of an Establishment, keeping 90% of the nation in its place. Let’s leave theories to David Icke. The vast majority of the population do not want left or right wing command economy.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Difficult to argue with your first point, under the whip, but they fundamentally don't believe in, there is a difference there for me. I do find it difficult to imagine a centrist party nationalising utilities, maybe we'll find out one day!

To be honest, I probably was where you were in 1997 (not Borneo, actually Brighton) and it's not in anyway to suggest that my view is more matured or anything simply that I've changed my mind. The disappointment of Blair saw to that, not that it was all bad but I thought that was the move to the centre that got power and that things like bringing utilities back in to the public ownership would follow.

Hang on - You're saying 'privatising' I'm reading the opposite, I must be getting tired, or confused?

no, I;m tired, I meant nationalisation.

There's probably an entropy issue there though, in that centrist parties are happy with nationalised industry, but the energy and effort required to go through with nationalisation is too much for them to do it, so they stick with the status quo.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

The underlying problem with the privatisation vs nationalisation debate that matters here (and with this group) is how does this land within the EU. Ignoring whether or not the EU competition/state aid rules would allow nationalised industries as of now the railways mail and utilities in the UK are “full fat” privatised.

This group will not be supporting a step back from that position, none of them wanted to prevent privatisation of the mail, simply put they are for the market not the state.

Ideologically speaking they are for the EU first and foremost. That’s the horse they will back to win elections.

oh yeah, this lot won't re-nationalise by themselves, but they should never have been forced out of the Labour party. They're decent people who should be part of the big left-of-centre tent

 

[jakarta]

With politicians like this on offer... what the hell is the British public supposed to do?

[tweet]1098250673035071490[/tweet]

If we lose Diane Abbott (heaven forbid) it's good to see Labour have someone ready & waiting to come off the Bench.