Middlesbrough's goals analysed

[Rookie]

Said similar back in pre season. Full backs first job seems to be to get forward while defending is a novelty or the midfield will cover (leaving the middle horribly exposed).
Really dislike the way he has us playing, we may get 6 points this week but it would be papering over the huge holes in the system.

 

[narly101]

At last a decent conversation about tactics, rather than a binfest. Makes a welcome change to NSC.

 

[British Bulldog]

It would possibly work if we got the ball to them a bit quicker but Dunk and Greer roll the ball to each other rather than 'zip' the ball across the back so the opposition have time to shuffle across, keep their shape and close down the fullback. Problem is that Sammi has decided how he wants to play rather than look at the players we have and play a system that suits their capabilities.

As for blaming Stockdale, what a load of rubbish. Having again looked at both on iplayer, when there is a heavy touch he makes his move and stands up (as Peter Schmichael) used to do) but their player gets there and squares it. Ball deflects straight to Tomlin who easily slots home. The second, he makes a good reflex save as the ball comes into Adomah and he hits it first time. Another day it would have gone out for a corner but that's luck. Not sure how anyone can say Kuszczak would definitely have got there. He made one or two errors!

Your spot on in my opinion, As for Kuszczak he made quite a few errors. He might have been a good shot stopper but he could be very indecisive hence the defenders were constantly having a go at him during games.

 

[Diego Napier]

I'm pretty sure that if you ever play a system of wing backs as we are playing now, you always ensure that play three in the centre of defence to cover the shortfall in the event that a break becomes apparent.

This is the correct answer.

It's too simplistic to suggest the fullbacks were caught too far upfield or Stockdale was poor or the centre backs lack pace. The midfield players need to carry out their defensive responsibilities; Hyypia keeps banging on about work rate and learning a new system, they clearly aren't there yet.

Ed: it would be interesting to see the stats from games that Bruno has started in midfield rather than fullback, he'd understand the positiing required and have the defensive awareness.

 

[carteater]

to be honest, using the full backs as wingers all the time is one of the worst tactics I've ever seen an albion team use, the whole reason that they're full backs in the first place is because they're not pacey enough to be wingers, so if they're right up near the box and the other team breaks, they are not going to get back into position. I know this tactic is used in other teams but they tend to have 3 centre backs which sort of covers it.

 

[Rugrat]

I have tried to understand the thinking behind the full-backs being ahead of the midfield. But failed. Can anyone explain?

Not really but I think the deeper midfielders are supposed to drop in behind to provide the cover. Crofts did it pretty well and JFC isn't too bad but not sure about Holla.

Certainly for their second there was absolutely no cover whatsoever, that might be because the players aren't doing what they are supposed to but more likely that Hypia was telling them all to get forward and get the win he needed to take pressure off.

Personally i'd go back to wingers, KLL is way better a wide front man than Calderon/Bennett who are both (maybe) better full backs than Crofts/Holla/Ince or JFC

Sami needs to admit it's not working and make changes .. if he remains wedded to his "system" it has to lead to the inevitable

 

[Withdean11]

Exactly what i have been saying since Saturday. Can't blame Calde/Bennett, as they are only doing what is asked of them, but it is a terrible tactic. Why use defensive players as wingers and play natural wingers (LuaLua) out of position. It's making us weaker in attack and defence. We have players playing the wrong roles, no wonder our 2 top scorers are defenders.

I do agree with [MENTION=12101]Mellotron[/MENTION] too in that Stockdale should of done better. He has looked a big stepped down to TK so far. But the fact is we should not be letting them have those chances. Both goals Saturday were fault in tactics, not helped by goalkeeping.

 

[goldstone]

Great stuff, Mr T ... and a most interesting debate. I too fail to see the merit in playing full backs as wingers, wingers in central midfield, and midfielders as full backs. It makes absolutely no sense to me and certainly doesn't play to the strengths of the individual players.

 

[mwrpoole]

I have tried to understand the thinking behind the full-backs being ahead of the midfield. But failed. Can anyone explain?

I can see the logic - your midfield 4 play a lot narrower and should in theory dominate possession, allowing the full backs to provide the necessary width without much risk. Where it falls down, and their first goal is a classic example, is when you give the ball away cheaply when 7 or 8 of your players are ahead of the ball. You're left so open and decent teams will always take advantage.

There was an analysis of Arsenal's failing last season against the 'top' teams on MOTD not long ago and they had the exact same problem, particularly against Liverpool at Anfield.

It can work but someone in midfield needs to hold back to create a back 3, and that person needs pace. That's not Holla or JFC, but perhaps Ince. Of course, not giving the ball away so cheaply helps.

 

[Mellotron]

It would possibly work if we got the ball to them a bit quicker but Dunk and Greer roll the ball to each other rather than 'zip' the ball across the back so the opposition have time to shuffle across, keep their shape and close down the fullback. Problem is that Sammi has decided how he wants to play rather than look at the players we have and play a system that suits their capabilities.

We passed the ball a LOT slower than we did against Cardiff. We looked worryingly lethargic in possession on Saturday.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

I can see the logic - your midfield 4 play a lot narrower and should in theory dominate possession, allowing the full backs to provide the necessary width without much risk. Where it falls down, and their first goal is a classic example, is when you give the ball away cheaply when 7 or 8 of your players are ahead of the ball. You're left so open and decent teams will always take advantage.

There was an analysis of Arsenal's failing last season against the 'top' teams on MOTD not long ago and they had the exact same problem, particularly against Liverpool at Anfield.

It can work but someone in midfield needs to hold back to create a back 3, and that person needs pace. That's not Holla or JFC, but perhaps Ince. Of course, not giving the ball away so cheaply helps.

Thank-you my friend. That makes sense to me. I also assumed that when the midfielder moved into the space created by the advanced fullback it does mean we do have a creative midfielder in possession who should be able to do more with it than a fullback.

If we are not playing three at the back - it does put a lot of emphasis on the midfield to cover. We saw at Brentford what happens when the opposition exploit speedy wingers against non-fullbacks.

 

[T soprano]

Just to add to my op I wasn't blaming Calderon or Bennett for both goals just the formation and our shape, if you're looking at individual errors on the first goal watch HOLLA (if you've still got FLS on sky plus) ball watching leaving the eventual goal scorer in acres of space behind him
If Sammi gonna keep this formation the defensive midfielder needs to do a better job of protecting the back 4 ( or in our case the back 2 )

 

[Peter Grummit]

Good if bleedin obvious analysis. I agree now is time to refine the tactics.

If Sami must play wingbacks then we have to play 3 CDs. 3-5-2. Hughes is a very decent CB and it would make us a bigger team, defending corners etc. Any of the 3 CDs are good enough on the ball to bring it out of defence and pass the ball.

So against Hudders I would go:

Stockdale (just!)
Dunk, Greer, Hughes
Bruno/Calde, Ince, JFC, McCourt, Bennett
Texeira, O'Grady

Or we revert to 4-4-1-1.

Currently we play 2-7-1!

PG

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

If Sami must play wingbacks then we have to play 3 CDs. 3-5-2. Hughes is a very decent CB and it would make us a bigger team, defending corners etc. Any of the 3 CDs are good enough on the ball to bring it out of defence and pass the ball.

Currently we play 2-7-1!

You would have thought - if we do have fullbacks as wingers there is opportunity to play two up front. Which is what we are told Baldock needs. CoG may not be the man - but he is all we have at the moment. Give him a go.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Full backs playing as wingers worked quite well if you have Cafu and Roberto Carlos in the side. But then they played with 2 DM's who sat in front of the centre backs to cover for them.

The first sentence is not as silly as it sounds comparing to us (well actually it is). But the point being is that we don't play with 2 DM's, usually only 1 so he is asking JFC and/or Gardner to cover a DM role.

Away at dirty Leeds we started with Holla and Bruno as DMs, arguably our best performance of the season so far. In our quest for goals, perhaps he does not want to revert back to that particularly at home? So I would play Ince (or Bruno if fit) and Holla together, with one of Gardner and JFC, Paddy and perm 2 from Tex, KLL, Baldock, Colunga, O'Grady, CMS.

 

[Hastings gull]

The Keeper hesitates

I would lay some blame at Stockdale for the first. From where I was sitting, when their left winger took that horribly heavy touch Stockdale could've definitely come and taken it. He hesitated. Kusz would've taken it. No question. With Stockdale you don't ever feel he's properly in command or control of his area.

I agree overall though, Hyppia deserves some blame as this tactical approach will only work if you have a stunning goalkeeper at this level (ie a Marshall or a Kuszczak)

The pictures showing where the full backs were, says it all. It is OK until something breaks down, which is always likely to happen and then we have no reserve. I was in East Stand Upper and fully agree with the post above -once that heavy touch was taken, Stockdale would have been first to the ball, as he was definitely closer but he clearly hesitated. Perhaps he was worried about a flailing leg and giving away a penalty, but his hesitation meant that the cross could come.

 

[BensGrandad]

I think, no doubt will be told I know nothing about football, that if SH is going to persist witrh his wing backs they can only be used with either 3 CBs or the normal 2 CB with Holla and Ince in front of them one to cover the right wingback and one the left. This would give us a more solid defence and allow one of them or both to be the base of the attack when we are going forward. The existing midfielders of Gardner and JFC do not offer the same amount of defensive cover.

There is a 3rd option but would never happen go to Sunderland and get Bridcutt back on loan.

 

[Bozza]

I was in East Stand Upper and fully agree with the post above -once that heavy touch was taken, Stockdale would have been first to the ball, as he was definitely closer but he clearly hesitated. Perhaps he was worried about a flailing leg and giving away a penalty, but his hesitation meant that the cross could come

I'm not so sure having just watched it repeatedly in the below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL8YzOkKUSw

This still is where the ball is as far away from the forward as it gets - he's still closer to it, and running at pace, with Stockdale coming from a standing start. I don't think it was his to claim at all.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

I was not at the game Saturday - and when I saw the first goal on the FLS - I could not understand why there was any criticism of Stockdale. The second one I can see.

It just looks like a bit of scapegoating to me.

 

[BensGrandad]

The critisicm of Stockdale comes from between 8 and 9 secs in when he went down and made no attempt to push, stop or divert the ball, that is the only critisicm I have. The 2nd was down to him completely not pushing it for a corner.