[News] Middle East conflict

[GingerBeerMan]

Five threads on Israel? I appreciate it's a big story but this is a football forum, can't they at least be merged? It's the same characters having the same debate across every thread.

 

[Dibdab]

I'd like to believe that Palestinian and Lebonesse civilians have only died where Hamas & Hesbolah have used them as a human shield.

Clearly this isn't the case. Israel have forced the entire population into an insanely small area and are dropping bombs on it. Even the Western Government fanboys of Israel have given up defending their strategy. It's obscene.

 

[dsr-burnley]

37,396 Palestinian fatalities by June 19, as accepted by Israeli intelligence officials.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext

According to The Lancet the figures could be as high as 186,000 if they include indirect fatalities caused by starvation and disease.

As for war and civilians fatalities per se, things have changed since WW1 and 2. Weapons and intelligence have evolved to be more sophisticated, accurate and less indiscriminate. Israel has not, and only pays lip service to the idea of only targeting legitimate targets. In reality they could not give a shit.

About half the 37,396 are what passes for soldiers in Hamas. Albeit they don't wear uniform. If we accept that killing soldiers who are making war against you counts as genocide, then no country in the world is innocent and the word genocide has completely changed its meaning.

Just to clarify, genocide means to aim to wipe out an entire race.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

None of those countries existed before 1918 they were hacked out of the old Turkish empire and some(all?) of the borders were pretty arbitrary.

Yes, see break up of the Ottoman Empire. My Dad’s cousin was killed in battle in Gaza in 1917. There was a Sussex regiment in Jerusalem, which is where he is buried.
He is also listed on the Haywards Heath war memorial.

See Lawrence of Arabia.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Neither did Palestine, or Saudi,
Well, exactly. The idea that modern Israel is uniquely 'new' is thoroughly ignorant. Often deliberately so

Saudi Arabia started in 1932 combining three areas. The Saud family, in particular Ibn Saud, took over.

 

[GingerBeerMan]

About half the 37,396 are what passes for soldiers in Hamas. Albeit they don't wear uniform. If we accept that killing soldiers who are making war against you counts as genocide, then no country in the world is innocent and the word genocide has completely changed its meaning.

Just to clarify, genocide means to aim to wipe out an entire race.

Well yes, if you conveniently reclassify the majority of the population as soldiers then it's pretty easy to live with yourself. Is this why the genocide sympathisers on this forum keep saying it's the war with the 'lowest ratio of civilian to soldier deaths'.

Great mental gymnastics there to justify wiping out 10% of a regions population.

 

[nicko31]

Israel didn't exist as a country then. It was created with borders. Its not ok to just keep taking land.

We had good intentions in 1948 and the Jews had been through horrific times, but on reflection it was a terrible idea creating a Jewish state.

Gaza is a catastrophe but the never ending theft of land in the west bank makes peace impossible and under the extremist government they are taking more and more everyday, creating terror and division with the Palestinians.

And lets face it the west only tolerates this because Israel is so aligned with the US.

 

[heathgate]

This really is the road to WW3 and really hard to see how it pulls back from here. Russia will back Syria and Iran, the Chinese could also easily get involved.

Good grief,.. this isn't the first time that region has gone the way of the pear,... it has happened any number of times, a lot of them more serious than this, not one of them led to a world war.... stop getting all flaky and emotional.... it's not a happy scenario, lives will be lost, but ultimately in time, all will settle down again until the next flashpoint emerges.

 

[aolstudios]

We had good intentions in 1948 and the Jews had been through horrific times, but on reflection it was a terrible idea creating a Jewish state.

Gaza is a catastrophe but the never ending theft of land in the west bank makes peace impossible and under the extremist government they are taking more and more everyday, creating terror and division with the Palestinians.

And lets face it the west only tolerates this because Israel is so aligned with the US.

Do you not think Iran & Qatar funded Hamas, Hezbollah & Huthi rebels might have something to do with the situation you describe? What with all of them open about their ambition to annihilate the Jews

 

[Washie]

Good grief,.. this isn't the first time that region has gone the way of the pear,... it has happened any number of times, a lot of them more serious than this, not one of them led to a world war.... stop getting all flaky and emotional.... it's not a happy scenario, lives will be lost, but ultimately in time, all will settle down again until the next flashpoint emerges.

The thing is, with Russia in a poor state of affairs, it may need more resources. "Helping Iran may help make Russia look stronger, plus may then convince their allies to help them with Ukraine and then maybe NATO. The area has always had tension and issues, but now Russia needs allies and resources, things can really snowball.

 

[nicko31]

Do you not think Iran & Qatar funded Hamas, Hezbollah & Huthi rebels might have something to do with the situation you describe? What with all of them open about their ambition to annihilate the Jews

Yeap, its a never ending doom loop.

 

[Goldstone1976]

Who had "World War 3 in 2025" on their bingo card?

Me. Unfortunately.

 

[aolstudios]

Yeap, its a never ending doom loop.

Except that if those I mention stop there will be peace.
If Israel stops, they will be annihilated

 

[Triggaaar]

Agreed as a state of israel that was created 1948 , but as a people claiming land it goes back to biblical times , and at the end of the day this conflict and many others has been a consequence of this and many holy wars

And at some point you have to stop fighting for more land and accept your lot. Israel should not have taken extra land.

 

[Triggaaar]

None of those countries existed before 1918 they were hacked out of the old Turkish empire and some(all?) of the borders were pretty arbitrary.

So you think they should all fight to change those borders forevermore?

 

[Triggaaar]

Neither did Palestine, or Saudi,

And they shouldn't be taking new land either, so I'm not sure what your point is?

 

[heathgate]

The thing is, with Russia in a poor state of affairs, it may need more resources. "Helping Iran may help make Russia look stronger, plus may then convince their allies to help them with Ukraine and then maybe NATO. The area has always had tension and issues, but now Russia needs allies and resources, things can really snowball.

Iran has already been on the ground in the Ukraine theatre.....mostly in Crimea operating drones against Ukraine targets.... as have many Asian, African and even South American odds and sods from suspect regimes.... nothing new there.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Israel has been bombing sites in Syria for many years , hitting arms dumps intended for Hezbollah and indeed Hezbollah fighters . Some of those attacks were also in support for Sunni Arabs who were fighting the Asad government and who would be classed in the West as terrorists.

 

[Bakero]

I'd like to believe that Palestinian and Lebonesse civilians have only died where Hamas & Hesbolah have used them as a human shield.

If the terrorists live and operate amongst innocent civilians, I don't know how else the Israelis could retaliate?

It's an ugly situation but I can't help feeling that if Hesbolah and Hamas left Israel alone the Israelis would stop hitting them. Its almost like the Israelis are being provoked into retaliation because Hamas, Hesbolah and Iran all know that Israel will be seen as being bad.

I do fear that Israel escalating is risky, poking a hornet's nest is never wise.

I don't mean to be rude but this is a rather simplistic view of the situation. I don't have the time or inclination to explain the background or the current state of affairs but you might want to do some reading.

 

[Bakero]

Iran has already been on the ground in the Ukraine theatre.....mostly in Crimea operating drones against Ukraine targets.... as have many Asian, African and even South American odds and sods from suspect regimes.... nothing new there.

Do you have a link to info regarding this?