[News] Middle East conflict

[chip]

D'you think Hitler would've surrendered to the Quakers?

I very much doubt that he would have. I was just pointing out that that this did happen (both here and the USA). People dream up ever more ingenious methods of killing or subjugating one another, it's a shame that these energies can't be put to better use.

 

[Seagull58]

There is no chance of this happening. The people of the Republic of Ireland (mostly) were not living in abject poverty whilst their neighbour helped itself for vast tracts of the resources, living mostly in luxury in homes that you could see from the other side of the fence.

Hamas/Hezbollah have the destruction of Israel written into their charters, it's their raison d'etre. On the other side, it's massively in Netanyahu's interest for this conflict to continue for as long and as violently as possible. He needs the illusion of an existential war, 1984 style, to remain in power. A wholesale change of leaders on both sides will be required before there is any prospect whatsoever of a two state solution.

A wholesale change of leaders in Israel, Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas etc. is inevitable. Nobody lives for ever. What is required is for the new leadership to set different objectives or to adopt a different approach to achieving their objectives.

 

[DJ Chi]

Supposing it was Ukraine doing it in Russia and effectively immobilising Putin's chain of command and, in doing so, 2 children and a couple of dozen civilians were killed?

It's not equal though, Hezbollah hasn't invaded with an attempt to claim the whole territory, it may aim to do so, but there's no chance it can ever happen, because Israel has overwhelming military superiority. All Hezbollah has is terror. The question Israel should be asking is, will this operation help to end the terrorism? Sure, it can ruin the communications, make it harder to inflict terror in the short term, but long term, the next generation of terrorists is recruited, and the cycle continues.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

In the immediate future I expect you are correct. In the long term Netanyahu will go and could be replaced with more moderate leadership, Iran's leadership could change, Syria's leadership could change, Hezbollah and Hamas could decide that the way they are attempting to achieve their objective is not sustainable and they must pursue another path. Some terrorists become political leaders and participate in government.

There are many reasons why my left eyebrow raised itself several times reading that.

For example, the objective of Hezbollah and Hamas is not to create independent Arab states on the West bank and in Palestine and live happily ever after. The objective is to drive the Jews into the sea. They could indeed choose another path to achieve that, but it wouldn't make things better.

As I have said before, if my old mum had had a cock she'd have been my dad.

 

[Seagull58]

I agree with all that.

But they are also rightfully defending themselves.

Unfortunately the tactic is cavalier smiting that often descends to indiscriminate maiming and killing of civilians.

The tricky bit for me is juggling how to not take sides while not blaming one side or another. Both sides crossed the line a long time ago.

I have tended to accept that Israel is defending itself (albeit rather brutally) and yet I can't ignore that Israel has effectively taken the whole of Palestine prisoner, and has allowed the west bank to turn into cowboy country, with only one side allowed to do any shooting.

Increasingly if we want to see an end to the slaughter both sides will need to be made to sit down and talk. And the leaders of both sides will need to have the authority to get their people to behave.

I cant see any of this happening any time soon, so expect more death, more atrocities and so on.

Israel has been attacked by Egypt more than once but now there is peace between them, as there is with Jordan. It is possible.

 

[nickbrighton]

Have you just compared Ukraine to Hezbollah? Correct me if I’m wrong but your analogy doesn’t work without that not making sense.

im comparing the way russia has blanket bombed huge swathes of Ukraine, Israel has done the same to Gaza. Im not comparing Hezbolla to Ukraine, Im comparing the similarities with Israeli and Russian warfare-one of whom has been widely condemed for its methods, the other has not

 

[HalfaSeatOn]

I was told by my Ol'gran

"one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist"

I was going to say this. It highlights what constitutes a terrorist is subjective, depends on someone’s perspective and motivation.

 

[aolstudios]

Israel has been attacked by Egypt more than once but now there is peace between them, as there is with Jordan. It is possible.

I admire your optimism & hope you're right

 

[Seagull58]

It's not equal though, Hezbollah hasn't invaded with an attempt to claim the whole territory, it may aim to do so, but there's no chance it can ever happen, because Israel has overwhelming military superiority. All Hezbollah has is terror. The question Israel should be asking is, will this operation help to end the terrorism? Sure, it can ruin the communications, make it harder to inflict terror in the short term, but long term, the next generation of terrorists is recruited, and the cycle continues.

Russia's objective is to destroy the Ukrainian state. Hezbolloh's objective is to destroy the Israeli state. The difference is only how they are executing their plans. So, would it be acceptable for Ukraine to do what Israel has done?

 

[jordanseagull]

im comparing the way russia has blanket bombed huge swathes of Ukraine, Israel has done the same to Gaza. Im not comparing Hezbolla to Ukraine, Im comparing the similarities with Israeli and Russian warfare-one of whom has been widely condemed for its methods, the other has not

im comparing the way russia has blanket bombed huge swathes of Ukraine, Israel has done the same to Gaza. Im not comparing Hezbolla to Ukraine, Im comparing the similarities with Israeli and Russian warfare-one of whom has been widely condemed for its methods, the other has not

I understand the various conflicts are related but this is a thread about the recent attacks on Hezbollah, a terrorist entity. Whatever one thinks of Israel and its warfare tactics, an analogy which compares Russia theoretically blowing up pagers of Ukrainians (not legitimate military targets) with Israel blowing up pagers of Hezbollah (a terrorist entity) doesn’t add up.

As Seagull58 mentions, Ukraine’s stated objective is not the annihilation of the Russian state, so of course attacks of this nature would be universally condemned.

 

[aolstudios]

Russia's objective is to destroy the Ukrainian state. Hezbolloh's objective is to destroy the Israeli state. The difference is only how they are executing their plans. So, would it be acceptable for Ukraine to do what Israel has done?

Your point is spot on.
I'd add though that Hezbollah want to kill all Jews

 

[chip]

This will yield Mossad good identity and other intelligence on Hezbollah activists

 

[Seagull58]

There are many reasons why my left eyebrow raised itself several times reading that.

For example, the objective of Hezbollah and Hamas is not to create independent Arab states on the West bank and in Palestine and live happily ever after. The objective is to drive the Jews into the sea. They could indeed choose another path to achieve that, but it wouldn't make things better.

As I have said before, if my old mum had had a cock she'd have been my dad.

The objective of the IRA and Sin Fein was to create a united Irish State. The objective of the Tamil Tigers was to create an independent Tamil State. Neither of those terrorist organisations are still operating militarily but neither has achieved their original objective.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Russia's objective is to destroy the Ukrainian state. Hezbolloh's objective is to destroy the Israeli state. The difference is only how they are executing their plans. So, would it be acceptable for Ukraine to do what Israel has done?

Russia (Putin) wants to reinstate the old USSR, so won’t stop at Ukraine.

 

[Zeberdi]

And round and round we go.

Yep.

What was a thread about a very specific news event has inevitably descended into another general Israeli/Gaza thread dominated by the same few ‘combatants’ barking the same old tropes at each other across an artificially polarised debate divide, whilst putting their hands over their ears. Everybody with good points, nobody getting it completely right.

I posted a news update above that more explosions occurred in cities across Lebanon again this afternoon as a result of handheld radio sets also blowing up - I also posted a response from the UN Chief but it got buried amongst all the same backwards and forwards stereotypical arguments. Criticism of Jews (as if it is a Jewish trait to murder/extinguish 17,000 innocent children rather than an extremist, political one), hatred of Israel, hatred of terrorists, of Muslims, of Palestinians and then those who say ‘yes’ but but … ‘why go on about Gaza, don’t you give a shit about people dying in Ukraine?’ as if being compassionate is mutually exclusive of one country over another - and of course, those saying ‘why bother to get into it anyway?’ - all posted ad nauseam in recent months.

Round and round.

Meanwhile the BBC are following an interesting and quite extraordinary story about the alleged manufacturer of the pagers that blew up yesterday

Gold Apollo: Taiwan pager maker stunned by link to Lebanon attacks

The race to find the manufacturer of pagers that exploded in Lebanon leads to a Taiwanese company.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[heathgate]

This will yield Mossad good identity and other intelligence on Hezbollah activists

There isn't much that they don't know... they of course miss the odd operational detail like we saw last year, but Mossad and the other very efficient Israeli agencies are generally on top of most major Islamist organisations.

 

[Seagull58]

Israel blows up Hezbollah pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?
Hezbollah blows up Israel government pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?
Russia blows up Ukrainian pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?
Ukraine blows up Russian pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?
The ANC blows up South African apartheid government pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?
South African apartheid givernment blows up ANC pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?
UK government blows up IRA pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?
IRA blows up UK government pagers/phones/walkie talkies. Acceptable or not?

 

[heathgate]

Meanwhile the BBC are following an interesting and quite extraordinary story about the alleged manufacturer of the pagers that blew up yesterday

Discussion points I am hearing through various people closer to it than most of us.... Iran buys pagers en masse from a source, eventually the supplier, Taiwan in this case, ships and this gets intercepted by Israel, 'adjusted' for operational use, continued on its way and distributed for Hezbollah use,... about to get outed, boom... such is the world we live in.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The objective of the IRA and Sin Fein was to create a united Irish State. The objective of the Tamil Tigers was to create an independent Tamil State. Neither of those terrorist organisations are still operating militarily but neither has achieved their original objective.

The Tamil Tigers did not reach a negotiated resolution. There were defeated militarily.

Sinn Fein is now the largest party in Northern Ireland, but they and the IRA never had sufficient traction in the South to sustain a realistic chance of military victory in the North. They knew soon enough they could never win 'the war'. Catholics in the north were discriminated against, but changes in the law particularly relating to discrimination in the workplace ultimately leading to the measure of independence enjoyed by Ulster has somewhat diffused the anger that fueled popular support for the IRA in the Catholic community. Ultimately the desire was to live and let live.

Hezbollah and Hamas in contrast want to remove all the Jews 'from the river to the sea'. They don't have an objective that can be negotiated.

The Palestinians want their land back (Palestine, or Israel as we now call it). Israel is not going to let them have it. This is not something that time and common sense is going to resolve.

 

[aolstudios]

This will yield Mossad good identity and other intelligence on Hezbollah activists

Good point