[News] Middle East conflict

[Seagull58]

Just adding WHO to the list of organisations in addition to the above that can provide a more accurate account of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza

Communications largely lost at the Al Shifa Hospital (Gaza’s largest hospital) which is no longer functioning after being reported earlier to be surrounded by tanks

WHO loses communication with contacts in Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza amid reports of attacks

www.emro.who.int

Has Hamas lost communications in the basement also?

 

[Wardy's twin]

Out of interest, when the North stand routinely chants “go get your father’s gone and shoot the Palace scum”, do you believe everyone who chants it is actively advocating for the mass slaughter of fans of Crystal Palace FC, or is it just a chant that people like singing?

I confess, I’m not one, but I also don’t like the “river to the sea” chant.

It is one of the many chants which I don't join in as it makes me cringe as does the one about paying benefits. I don't have an obsession with palace or hate them and I went through the 1970s as a teenager/young man.

Maybe it is a bit of banter, but If you take that chant and sung it after a palace fan had been shot and killed then I would think the singer was a twat and a lot worse, much like the stuff sung about Munich Air Disaster and the 97.

The problem with the chant 'river to the see' is that to a particular set of people it actually means a single Palestinian state at the expense of the jews. So singing it is endorsing it and if you don't want to endorse that then don't sing it.

 

[Zeberdi]

The problem with the chant 'river to the see' is that to a particular set of people it actually means a single Palestinian state at the expense of the jews. So singing it is endorsing it and if you don't want to endorse that then don't sing it.

FACT CHECK - FYI - It means that to Hamas and a minority of British citizens marching in the demos. It can also mean a one State solution where Palestinians, Jews and Christians have equal citizenship rights - but honestly most people appear to be chanting it because it is recognised as a sing of freedom whatever that form takes - for the majority of Palestinians the chant means not anti- Jewish but anti- the Zionist vision that would seek a Greater Israel at their expense..

“Dismissing or ignoring what this phrase means to the Palestinians is yet another means by which to silence Palestinian perspectives. Citing only Hamas leaders’ use of the phrase, while disregarding the liberationist context in which other Palestinians understand it, shows a disturbing level of ignorance about Palestinians’ views at best, and a deliberate attempt to smear their legitimate aspirations at worst”

Opinion | ‘From The River To The Sea’ Doesn’t Mean What You Think It Means

A 2018 piece by a Palestinian on what the phrase, which features prominently in anti-Israel protests, means to the activists who use it

forward.com

 

[Wardy's twin]

What utter biased garbage. The vast majority in the rest recognize Hamas as a terrorist organisation and their attack on the 7th as barbaric and cowardly. They also recognize the right for Palestinians to exist in a separate state. I would also suggest the vast majority recognize yhe right of Israel to do something about Hamas but not the wholesale slaughter of innocents which I guess you're quite happy to condone. We know Hamas use civilians as shields but to you, what ratio of dead innocents are acceptable for each Hamas death? 1:1, 10:1, 100:1, 1000:1? Tell us what you think is acceptable?

You are entitled to your opinion.

My comments were related to people attending marches not everyone full stop.

The current trending news items are about marches which are about bringing peace to the Palestinians , if they were neutral marches about bringing peace to the area they would not be full of Palestinian flags which are a national emblem.

Most of the stuff I watch is mainstream BBC or I read articles from the Guardian or Independent, interleaved with stuff which hits my Facebook timeline most of which I ignore because it is pushing one line or the other. I did however see one video on facebook which the 'peace marchers' in Australia were calling 'gas the Jews' but maybe you consider that was banter. I also see a lot of clips of people going out of their way to rip down posters about the hostages i.e. to deny it has happened . I saw another video saying Israeli's fire on Palestinians , all I saw was a group of people move one way and then run back after some shots were fired absolutely no imagery of the IDF shooting.

I have made it clear that I think ANY military response by Israel was wrong, read my posts which have annoyed Zeberdi. Its not because I think Israel is not 'entitled' to respond but because it was always going to be a mess and Israel will be portrayed as the oppressor. You cannot separate out civilians and armed terrorists when they morph into one and are co-located with their families you have to be a lot smarter than that. So the answer, certainly in the short term, is that Israel should have worked on getting the hostages back and showing the world what HAMAS is. It should have then identified the assailants who survived and taken appropriate action. A military action of the type being undertaken won't ever solve the bigger problem.

 

[Albion my Albion]

A military action of the type being undertaken won't ever solve the bigger problem.

But it will keep some of the older Israeli people alive who I think have been deserving of a civil discourse and not the savage treatment (kidnappings, hostage taking, burning of infants, etc.) that HAMAS and many Palestinians are very guilty of AND where it started. HAMAS has no excuses for those actions.

 

[Wardy's twin]

FACT CHECK - FYI - It means that to Hamas and a minority of British citizens marching in the demos. It can also mean a one State solution where Palestinians, Jews and Christians have equal citizenship rights - but honestly most people appear to be chanting it because it is recognised as a sing of freedom whatever that form takes - for the majority of Palestinians the chant means not anti- Jewish but anti- the Zionist vision that would seek a Greater Israel at their expense..

“Dismissing or ignoring what this phrase means to the Palestinians is yet another means by which to silence Palestinian perspectives. Citing only Hamas leaders’ use of the phrase, while disregarding the liberationist context in which other Palestinians understand it, shows a disturbing level of ignorance about Palestinians’ views at best, and a deliberate attempt to smear their legitimate aspirations at worst”

Opinion | ‘From The River To The Sea’ Doesn’t Mean What You Think It Means

A 2018 piece by a Palestinian on what the phrase, which features prominently in anti-Israel protests, means to the activists who use it

forward.com

That's not a FACT CHECK that's an opinion because that's how do you view it.

As I said before you don't seem to like alternative views and you try to supress them by coming up with trite comments as per highlight.

The context of the current phase of this thread is not about the wider picture but focussing on the 'peace marches' my view that no one has proved otherwise is that they seem more focussed on supporting Palestine rather than a neutral stance to bring peace to the area. So please , cause I am happy to be proved wrong, show me peace marches which don't have an abundance of Palestinian flags and don't use a chant which has a very clear meaning to the state of Israel.

 

[Wardy's twin]

FACT CHECK

• Hamas has not had the mandate to govern since 2006 - there have been no elections since then -
• Hamas have tortured Gazans who collaborate with IDF and Israelis
• Hamas overthrew the only political alternative in a bloody takeover.
• HAMAS has a variety of leadership bodies that carry out a variety of functions including political, social and paramilitary
• Hamas‘s overall policies are overseen by a consultative body that works outside Gaza
• Hamas’ military wing is distinct from its administrative/political bodies and Social Service wing ( Dawah) and is formed of highly trained paramilitary brigades (the Izz ad-Din al-Qasdam Brigades ) that resemble state armies.
• The Brigades maintain an independent level of decision making from the Hamas organisation.
• It is this ‘plausible deniability’ between the terrorist wing of Hamas and the political wing in the structure of Hamas that could possibly leave a door open for negotiations ( as it did with Sinn Fein and the IRA)

FACT CHECK

• One can not possibly know what 300,000 people believe without asking them
• The chant has origins prior to Israel, has several different interpretations. and has been used by Hamas and protestors in different ways.

Why would people who are marching against oppression be waving flags in support of their oppressor? - or who would carry a banner calling for Israel to ‘stop the genocide’ whilst also marching to support them while they commit it? That’s non-sensical.

Sorry but some of your arguments and how you characterise the situation in Gaza seems to have little basis in logic or reality at times to me.

Your use of FACT CHECK is brilliant , designed to give some impression that you are right and I am wrong. even more clever when you do actually mix truth with semi truth or distortion. e.g Hamas has not had the mandate to govern since 2006 - there have been no elections since then - It got the mandate in 2006 , it didn't get it for a day or a minute it got it full stop the palestinian people apparently wanted it .

You can talk all you like about the separate bits but the reality on the floor is that HAMAS politically and militarily want to destroy Israel and the Jews and let's be clear will be pretty nasty to the 2.5 million people who live in Israel and are mainly arabs.

My turn to be offended when you consider Sinn Fein / IRA as having ANY resemblance to HAMAS at no point did they preach genocide.

The chant has origins prior to Israel, has several different interpretations. and has been used by Hamas and protestors in different ways. laughable. like any offensive language its offensive.

Why would people who are marching against oppression be waving flags in support of their oppressor? - or who would carry a banner calling for Israel to ‘stop the genocide’ whilst also marching to support them while they commit it? That’s non-sensical. So you agree that these aren't neutral peace marches these are marches to stop the current fighting (which I was against and you supported as long as no one got hurt) and to support palestinians only and the voice of the Israelis whose relatives were murdered is lost.

I have had enough of this dialogue I going to block my access to this thread.

 

[Zeberdi]

Your use of FACT CHECK is brilliant , designed to give some impression that you are right and I am wrong. even more clever when you do actually mix truth with semi truth or distortion. e.g Hamas has not had the mandate to govern since 2006 - there have been no elections since then - It got the mandate in 2006 , it didn't get it for a day or a minute it got it full stop the palestinian people apparently wanted it .

The elections in 2006 were when both Fatah and Hamas served on the Palestinian Authority which ruled both the West Bank and Gaza post Oslo - and before Hamas overuled Fatah in a bloody conflict in 2007 and became the government of Gaza - Hamas was never even elected the Government of Gaza. Do you also realise that almost half of Gazans are under 18 so have never voted for Hamas?

Only a minority of Gazans know any different. Hamas has support for sure but only amongst a minority. Hamas has by many accounts, for years skimmed off international aid meant for the people and sold it back to them for high taxes and tortured it’s own people for standing up to them. Do you think that fact a political party that was last elected 17 years ago to an Administrative body to which they no longer associate gives them an electoral mandate to govern now - Forever? Don’t you think that renders pointless the question, ‘who did Palestinians in Gaza vote for?’

The fact that there was an election in 2006 can’t be used to accuse all Palestinian people now as being/supporting terrorists or to suggest that civilians and Hamas are interchangeable - there needs to be a sounder base for that assertion based on contemporary evidence.

Facts DO matter - if you disagree them dispute them by all means with alternative sources.

You can talk all you like about the separate bits but the reality on the floor is that HAMAS politically and militarily want to destroy Israel and the Jews

Well you can’t ignore context - this war is not taking place in a vacuum - the illegal Occupation and apartheid treatment of Palestinians, random punishments killings, settlement expansion are not ‘bits’ that are an adjunct for a separate conversation, they are an integral part of the reality.


Hamas‘ earlier charter (which I posted a link to up thread, was to destroy Israel (which is 73.3% Jews and 21% Arab plus other minorities) to be more precise - however, they released a revised version of their charter in 2017 which suggests that they could perhaps be flexible in the aims if conditions were improved - although given recent events, its looking more like a hollow PR exercise

https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2017/05/hamas-strategic-rebranding.html

My turn to be offended when you consider Sinn Fein / IRA as having ANY resemblance to HAMAS at no point did they preach genocide.

I don’t know why you find the comparison offensive, none was meant certainly - actually the Irish Troubles have given cause for political commentators to draw many parallels over the years to the Palestinian struggle for freedom. The comparison that I made however, was purely to show that both Hamas and the IRA had/have both active and political wings - and the political wing is what opens up the possibility for future peace negotiations - that was all. See the link above re. what Hamas ‘ preach’ - it is not as clear as you might think - ( I do have to say though if it’s existential threats you are worried about, that the Netanyahu government looks far closer at this point in history, to achieving a genocidal objective than Hamas will ever be.

The chant has origins prior to Israel, has several different interpretations. and has been used by Hamas and protestors in different ways.

laughable. like any offensive language its offensive.

I don’t know how stating a simple fact is ‘laughable’ - I have provided numerous and links showing you that the chant has different meanings to different Palestinians but I agree because most non-Palestinians do not realise this, I understand why some people find it inflammatory - personally, I don’t.

Why would people who are marching against oppression be waving flags in support of their oppressor? - or who would carry a banner calling for Israel to ‘stop the genocide’ whilst also marching to support them while they commit it? That’s non-sensical.

So you agree that these aren't neutral peace marches these are marches to stop the current fighting (which I was against and you supported as long as no one got hurt) and to support palestinians only and the voice of the Israelis whose relatives were murdered is lost?

Of course they are not neutral - they are protesting primarily against Israel’s bombardment of Gaza and the illegal occupation and to suggest I support military action as long as no one gets hurt is frankly a ridiculous parody of what I actually said. I have said repeatedly that it would have been unrealistic to expect Israel not to respond with some kind of limited retaliation but I never said I did support it and certainly not this collective punishment of an entire peoples, which is being regarded as genocidal by a lot Countries and the UN - I agree, it is pointless as it will not destroy Hamas who operate from Qatar and Turkey with supporter terrorist cells throughout the ME and will radicalise generations to come.

I have had enough of this dialogue I going to block my access to this thread

Again?

 

[Albion my Albion]

All the current rhetoric says Hamas wants to destroy Israel as much as IDF & Netanyahu wants to destroy Hamas and any followers of that governing body. There is no negotiating with Hamas in any way. Why should Israel give at all?

 

[Zeberdi]

All the current rhetoric says Hamas wants to destroy Israel as much as IDF & Netanyahu wants to destroy Hamas and any followers of that governing body. There is no negotiating with Hamas in any way. Why should Israel give at all?

Yep, extremists on both sides - we need to be rid of them both - no negotiating with Religious Zionists whose far-right agenda is a Greater Israel (and are half way there to achieving it) and Hamas will certainly not negotiate anything until there is a ceasefire.

Btw - it’s not a binary situation, there is a lot of moderate rhetoric too

 

[spence]

Your use of FACT CHECK is brilliant , designed to give some impression that you are right and I am wrong. even more clever when you do actually mix truth with semi truth or distortion. e.g Hamas has not had the mandate to govern since 2006 - there have been no elections since then - It got the mandate in 2006 , it didn't get it for a day or a minute it got it full stop the palestinian people apparently wanted it .

You can talk all you like about the separate bits but the reality on the floor is that HAMAS politically and militarily want to destroy Israel and the Jews and let's be clear will be pretty nasty to the 2.5 million people who live in Israel and are mainly arabs.

My turn to be offended when you consider Sinn Fein / IRA as having ANY resemblance to HAMAS at no point did they preach genocide.

The chant has origins prior to Israel, has several different interpretations. and has been used by Hamas and protestors in different ways. laughable. like any offensive language its offensive.

Why would people who are marching against oppression be waving flags in support of their oppressor? - or who would carry a banner calling for Israel to ‘stop the genocide’ whilst also marching to support them while they commit it? That’s non-sensical. So you agree that these aren't neutral peace marches these are marches to stop the current fighting (which I was against and you supported as long as no one got hurt) and to support palestinians only and the voice of the Israelis whose relatives were murdered is lost.

I have had enough of this dialogue I going to block my access to this thread.

Agree. Have now blocked him. I find him nauseating

 

[Zeberdi]

Agree. Have now blocked him. I find him nauseating

Gutted that the MAGA Trump supporter has me on ignore.

 

[Klaas]

Gutted that the MAGA Trump supporter has me on ignore.

The MAGA , British and proud, wears his Rangers top with pride, very confused individual.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

A ceasefire that meant those is Gaza were hemmed into one of the most heavily populated areas in the world and had to ask their overlords permission to leave. A ceasefire that meant many people in the West Bank having their homes taken by armed settlers. A ceasefire that denied rights to Arab Israelis that are afforded to non-Arab Israelis. A ceasefire that saw hundreds of Arabs ( many children ) 'arrested' for no reason. Ceasefire my arse.

 

[borat]

A ceasefire that meant those is Gaza were hemmed into one of the most heavily populated areas in the world and had to ask their overlords permission to leave. A ceasefire that meant many people in the West Bank having their homes taken by armed settlers. A ceasefire that denied rights to Arab Israelis that are afforded to non-Arab Israelis. A ceasefire that saw hundreds of Arabs ( many children ) 'arrested' for no reason. Ceasefire my arse.

Indeed and includes 240 killed by Israel and close to 10,000 injuries (UN figures) - in 2023 alone

 

[sparkie]

Your use of FACT CHECK is brilliant , designed to give some impression that you are right and I am wrong. even more clever when you do actually mix truth with semi truth or distortion. e.g Hamas has not had the mandate to govern since 2006 - there have been no elections since then - It got the mandate in 2006 , it didn't get it for a day or a minute it got it full stop the palestinian people apparently wanted it .

You can talk all you like about the separate bits but the reality on the floor is that HAMAS politically and militarily want to destroy Israel and the Jews and let's be clear will be pretty nasty to the 2.5 million people who live in Israel and are mainly arabs.

My turn to be offended when you consider Sinn Fein / IRA as having ANY resemblance to HAMAS at no point did they preach genocide.

The chant has origins prior to Israel, has several different interpretations. and has been used by Hamas and protestors in different ways. laughable. like any offensive language its offensive.

Why would people who are marching against oppression be waving flags in support of their oppressor? - or who would carry a banner calling for Israel to ‘stop the genocide’ whilst also marching to support them while they commit it? That’s non-sensical. So you agree that these aren't neutral peace marches these are marches to stop the current fighting (which I was against and you supported as long as no one got hurt) and to support palestinians only and the voice of the Israelis whose relatives were murdered is lost.

I have had enough of this dialogue I going to block my access to this thread.

The way the thread has moved away from news to eternal arguments makes that tempting, for sure. I have held off on pushing the "ignore thread" in an ever forlorn hope of news of the hostages.

I think I agree that Israel fell into Hamas' trap and has reacted exactly as Hamas planned. A ceasefire and focus on the hostages can't come soon enough.

 

[Zeberdi]

The way the thread has moved away from news to eternal arguments makes that tempting, for sure. I have held off on pushing the "ignore thread" in an ever forlorn hope of news of the hostages.

I posted yesterday several links above from UN and Medicine Sans Frontieres links to one of the main News stories coming out of Gaza this weekend - regarding the bombardment and loss of power at the Al Shifa Hospital by Israel forces resulting in the deaths of medical staff and horrifically, newborn babies whose incubators had failed. Israeli tanks were reportedly surrounding the hospital before communications were lost

Reuters are reporting today that Hamas has suspended hostage talks on Sunday in response to the attacks on the hospital

Palestinian official says Hamas ends hostage talks | Reuters Video

Hamas on Sunday (November 12) said it is suspending hostage negotiations because of Israel's handling of the Al Shifa Hospital in Gaza, a Palestinian official briefed on the hostage talks told Reuters. This edit contains graphic images. Zachary Goelman reports.

www.reuters.com

Israel’s assault on Gaza adds to uncertainty of fragile hostage talks

“The clock is ticking,” a diplomat with knowledge of the hostage talks told NBC News.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Albion my Albion]

Gutted that the MAGA Trump supporter has me on ignore.

Should be a badge of honor. Trump just spoke this weekend that Obama is still president which shows he is still fixated on Obama due to his blatant racism.

 

[peterward]

Corbyns Michael Howard moment?

Very combustible interview.

 

[Hastings gull]

You are entitled to your opinion.

My comments were related to people attending marches not everyone full stop.

The current trending news items are about marches which are about bringing peace to the Palestinians , if they were neutral marches about bringing peace to the area they would not be full of Palestinian flags which are a national emblem.

Most of the stuff I watch is mainstream BBC or I read articles from the Guardian or Independent, interleaved with stuff which hits my Facebook timeline most of which I ignore because it is pushing one line or the other. I did however see one video on facebook which the 'peace marchers' in Australia were calling 'gas the Jews' but maybe you consider that was banter. I also see a lot of clips of people going out of their way to rip down posters about the hostages i.e. to deny it has happened . I saw another video saying Israeli's fire on Palestinians , all I saw was a group of people move one way and then run back after some shots were fired absolutely no imagery of the IDF shooting.

I have made it clear that I think ANY military response by Israel was wrong, read my posts which have annoyed Zeberdi. Its not because I think Israel is not 'entitled' to respond but because it was always going to be a mess and Israel will be portrayed as the oppressor. You cannot separate out civilians and armed terrorists when they morph into one and are co-located with their families you have to be a lot smarter than that. So the answer, certainly in the short term, is that Israel should have worked on getting the hostages back and showing the world what HAMAS is. It should have then identified the assailants who survived and taken appropriate action. A military action of the type being undertaken won't ever solve the bigger problem.

Your answer - so simple isn't it. You ask hamas, possibly via an intermediary, for the return of the hostages, they obligingly agree and let you know who they are, so you can eliminate them. Then you tip toe through Gaza, shooting any terrorist, avoiding those used as shields and any damage to property. Job done.