[News] Middle East conflict

[drew]

I truly feel there is no legit cause for the terrorism that Palestinian civilians would, in your view, turn to in the future

Don't you mean Hamas? You seem to be putting all Palestinians in the same category as Hamas and that might be why your posts seem to suggest you don't care about their deaths.

And I haven't once said or intimated that terrorism is justified. That said it is often quoted that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Menachem Begin was a terrorist before eventually becoming the head of Israel.

For what it's worth, I think Israel has fallen into the trap set by Hamas. Hamas cannot defeat Israel on it's own so the provocation was designed to provoke the response that Israel (or maybe more appropriately, Netanyahu) have pursued and that Hamas hopes that is likely to unite other organisations/countries against Israel.

 

[WATFORD zero]

It's not!!!!

IDF is killing Hamas leadership that is hiding among Palestinian civilians. That should be on the Hamas leadership.

I really don't want to do a numbers thing but, as of 2 days ago 9,061 people have died in Gaza since 7th October. How many of those do you think are 'Hamas leadership' and how many have been innocent civilians ? (bearing in mind 2/3rds of them have been women and children).

 

[Zeberdi]

It's not!!!!

IDF is killing Hamas leadership that is hiding among Palestinian civilians. That should be on the Hamas leadership.

International law as codified by the Geneva Convention Art 4 would disagree with you.

“All feasible precautions must be taken in determining whether a person is a civilian and, if so, whether that civilian is directly participating in hostilities. In case of doubt, the person must be presumed to be protected against direct attack … and an attack is prohibited “

 

[Hastings gull]

This is a rather one sided portrayal of the conflict - perhaps some more background reading for balance?

There has been aggression and murder on both sides for the past 70 plus years - albeit heavily leaning toward Israel as the main antagonist - actually it’s never really gone away since before Israel became an independent state. ‘ The people’ didn’t ‘turn’ to Hamas, Hamas was elected as a political party to represent the people of Palestine as one of two political parties that ruled the OPT from 1994 along with Fatah, the other political party, as an outcome of the Oslo Peace Accords - it was a positive step forward.

In 2005 Hamas solidified control in Gaza without an electoral mandate and by brutal force and have maintained control through torturous means and killing their opponents ever since..

- the attack on Israel wasn’t so much as last straw but a continuation of a conflict that has been going on for decades and which there has been terrorism on both sides.

Israel DID come to a peace deal under the Oslo Accords in 1993 - both the PLO and Israel laid down their arms and agreed to work towards an independent Palestinian State - it was extremists on both sides that were responsible for the resurgence of violence, Hamas with the suicide bombings that undermined Rabin’s Labour Party and the Religious Zionist that assassinated him and made way for Netanyahu’s Lukid Party to come to power.

Its all very well ( and completely) justifiable to condemn the appalling events in Gaza but in doing so, don’t think Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestinian Territories has been met with a passive resistance for the past 70 years until Hamas asserted itself in the mid 1990s because it wasn’t and don’t assume all the people are an homogenous group who all support Hamas, they don’t.

I don't know as much abut this as you do, so this is a genuine question. I am sure that I looked at Wikipedia and saw that hamas gained 44% of the vote in 2006 -the last election held in Gaza, as they have strangled all opposition since. Was Hamas a nice cuddly organisation then or did it campaign on a ticket of destroy Israel, in which case the people of Gaza are not quite as innocent as commentators here like to make out. Yes, I know that Israeli intransigence has polarised views in the region, causing much hatred, but my point is that they are both as bad, if Hamas won an election with such stated aims, as opposed to more moderate arab opinion, seeking some sort of deal with israel.

 

[Wozza]

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Can people please stop drawing comparisons to the Holocaust in this conflict, it’s offensive - @Bozza did ask this a few days ago - perhaps people missed it?

While I fully accept Bozza's view point it is very difficult not to make the comparison given what is going on. It's equally possible to make comparisons with what Russia is currently doing, or indeed China. Maybe we should chuck in a couple of South American countries such as Argentina or Chilie in the 1980's ? It's very easy, if a state, any state, doesn't want to be compared to another current or previous state - then don't carry out crimes that mean you will be compared to those previous or current states

 

[Wozza]

I don't know as much abut this as you do, so this is a genuine question. I am sure that I looked at Wikipedia and saw that hamas gained 44% of the vote in 2006 -the last election held in Gaza, as they have strangled all opposition since. Was Hamas a nice cuddly organisation then or did it campaign on a ticket of destroy Israel, in which case the people of Gaza are not quite as innocent as commentators here like to make out. Yes, I know that Israeli intransigence has polarised views in the region, causing much hatred, but my point is that they are both as bad, if Hamas won an election with such stated aims, as opposed to more moderate arab opinion, seeking some sort of deal with israel.

47% of the Gaza population are kids. They definitely didn't vote Hamas.

 

[drew]

I don't know as much abut this as you do, so this is a genuine question. I am sure that I looked at Wikipedia and saw that hamas gained 44% of the vote in 2006 -the last election held in Gaza, as they have strangled all opposition since. Was Hamas a nice cuddly organisation then or did it campaign on a ticket of destroy Israel, in which case the people of Gaza are not quite as innocent as commentators here like to make out. Yes, I know that Israeli intransigence has polarised views in the region, causing much hatred, but my point is that they are both as bad, if Hamas won an election with such stated aims, as opposed to more moderate arab opinion, seeking some sort of deal with israel.

Not sure it's quite as simple at that. Yes, Hamas were never a cuddly political party but it seems that Fatah, the ruling party before the election (and had been for many years) were rife with corruption, nepotism so it would suggest the people of Palestine may have been caught between a rock and a hard place! Had there been elections since, then maybe they may have been able to vote out Hamas after one term but that never happened. I'm no expert but this might be worth a read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election

 

[Albion my Albion]

I really don't want to do a numbers thing but, as of 2 days ago 9,061 people have died in Gaza since 7th October. How many of those do you think are 'Hamas leadership' and how many have been innocent civilians ? (bearing in mind 2/3rds of them have been women and children).

I feel it is the cowardly Hamas leadership that is responsible for any of the Palestinian civilians deaths. It's truly sad but you don't run & hide among the women, children & innocent Palestinian men and expect them not to be hurt. Terrorism MUST be dealt with.

 

[Albion my Albion]

International law as codified by the Geneva Convention Art 4 would disagree with you.

“All feasible precautions must be taken in determining whether a person is a civilian and, if so, whether that civilian is directly participating in hostilities. In case of doubt, the person must be presumed to be protected against direct attack … and an attack is prohibited “

You really believe that when the war opposition doesn't hold to international law that you are supposed to anyway. Tell that to the Israeli mothers' whose babies were set on fire.

 

[Bakero]

You really believe that when the war opposition doesn't hold to international law that you are supposed to anyway. Tell that to the Israeli mothers' whose babies were set on fire.

Well, yes. That's why these laws exist. You can't just slaughter thousands of civilians to get revenge for your citizens being attacked.

 

[sparkie]

My favourite YouTube channel - Warographics - now has a near 2 hour primer on the history of this conflict.

 

[Albion my Albion]

Well, yes. That's why these laws exist. You can't just slaughter thousands of civilians to get revenge for your citizens being attacked.

So the certain Germans after WWII shouldn't have been executed just because they ran concentration camps which the Palestinians have declared lies and propaganda.

 

[drew]

So the certain Germans after WWII shouldn't have been executed just because they ran concentration camps which the Palestinians have declared lies and propaganda.

Yet again you conflate Palestinians with Hamas. Your attitude probably explains why, at the moment, Israel is losing the propaganda war.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I feel it is the cowardly Hamas leadership that is responsible for any of the Palestinian civilians deaths. It's truly sad but you don't run & hide among the women, children & innocent Palestinian men and expect them not to be hurt. Terrorism MUST be dealt with.

So, as you have amply demonstrated here, you have little to no knowledge of the most basic facts, history or reasons behind the current conflict (despite this very thread being a rich source), and believe that what you 'feel' is sufficient justification for the murder of thousands and thousands of innocent children, women and men.

I am not sure where we go from here if you refuse to acknowledge simple history and facts and won't consider anything outside of your visceral feelings

 

[Wardy's twin]

Time and time again Hamas have repeated what they will do with the state of Israel and the Jews therein. The attack on the 7th October showed what that means, anyone they can kill they will and where possible with as much cruelty as possible targeting the weakest groups. Israel as a state has reacted emotionally to that threat/promise/actuality. The question is how do you deal with HAMAS, they are not a separate group of clearly identifiable people, they don't wear uniforms, they don't fight a conventional war . They keep extended families close to them, they see death as martyrdom. Israel has declared war on HAMAS after the attack. So the question goes back to if HAMAS has not retracted it's stated intention to destroy Israel and the Jews why should Israel fight with gloves on.

 

[Bakero]

So the certain Germans after WWII shouldn't have been executed just because they ran concentration camps which the Palestinians have declared lies and propaganda.

This is an odd post. Are you comparing Palestinian civilians, including children, to concentration camp guards?

Of course there is antisemitism and Holocaust denial in Palestine but it's a bit of a stretch to attribute it to all of them. Do you mean Hamas declared that concentration camps were propaganda?

 

[drew]

Time and time again Hamas have repeated what they will do with the state of Israel and the Jews therein. The attack on the 7th October showed what that means, anyone they can kill they will and where possible with as much cruelty as possible targeting the weakest groups. Israel as a state has reacted emotionally to that threat/promise/actuality. The question is how do you deal with HAMAS, they are not a separate group of clearly identifiable people, they don't wear uniforms, they don't fight a conventional war . They keep extended families close to them, they see death as martyrdom. Israel has declared war on HAMAS after the attack. So the question goes back to if HAMAS has not retracted it's stated intention to destroy Israel and the Jews why should Israel fight with gloves on.

Because Israel is a nation state and not a terror organisation. The UK did not bomb the shit out of Dublin when we were attacked by the IRA. Thousands of innocent civilians did not die at the hands of the British Army during the 'troubles' although there were some casualties. In 30 years I think the estimates are less than 200 innocent civilians, which isn't great but is no where near the scale of what Israel are doing.

 

[Wardy's twin]

So, as you have amply demonstrated here, you have little to no knowledge of the most basic facts, history or reasons behind the current conflict (despite this very thread being a rich source), and believe that what you 'feel' is sufficient justification for the murder of thousands and thousands innocent children, women and men.

I am not sure where we go from here if you refuse to acknowledge simple history and facts and won't consider anything outside of your visceral feelings

The history just does a lot to obscur the current reality. HAMAS wants to destroy Israel, Israel doesn't want to be destroyed. If Hamas and more importantly Iran changed its stance then some sort of progress could be made. Don't get me wrong the current Israeli government has many faults but it's moved to right over the years as the threat from extremists have continued. Israel is something resembling a democracy NONE of the surrounding states are.

 

[WATFORD zero]

The history just does a lot to obscur the current reality. HAMAS wants to destroy Israel, Israel doesn't want to be destroyed. If Hamas and more importantly Iran changed its stance then some sort of progress could be made. Don't get me wrong the current Israeli government has many faults but it's moved to right over the years as the threat from extremists have continued. Israel is something resembling a democracy NONE of the surrounding states are.

I would suggest that History absolutely defines the current reality.

If you don't understand the history, how could you possibly have even the simplest understanding of the current situation or possible solutions