[News] Middle East conflict

[dsr-burnley]

Jeremy Bowen on the BBC has suggested that it would be surprising if Hamas/Islamic Jihad had a missile powerful enough to cause the destruction seen.

Unless they were storing other missiles at the hospital.

I think we can be sure Israel didn't deliberately target the hospital. Unless they had another massive intelligence failure, it must have been a misfire from somewhere - unless Hamas did it themselves. Almost nothing can be ruled out.

 

[pb21]

I think we can be sure Israel didn't deliberately target the hospital.

I'm not sure. We've seen and heard the not unreasonably visceral feelings from the Israelis towards Hamas. What if they thought top Hamas people were using the hospital as a base, as we are told they do.

 

[Hugo Rune]

I think we can be sure Israel didn't deliberately target the hospital…….. Almost nothing can be ruled out.

Your first is dubious.

Your second statement is correct.

There is a statement from Israel that they killed many Hamas fighters in the hospital hit. This statement was then deleted. I’m certainly not ruling out that the hospital was deliberately hit by the IDF.

 

[clapham_gull]

Would seem extremely unlucky (I realise that's a massive understatement) that a Hamas missile accidently hits a hospital, whereas we have been told Hamas are thought to hide in hospitals.

There is now quite a bit of independent analysis that is coming to the conclusion that may well have happened.

Not linking to it, it's easily found. The same volunteers who debunk claimed locations and timings of staged propaganda videos.

I clearly have no personal view either way.

 

[Zeberdi]

The hospital strike continues to show that this conflict has been mainly influenced by misinformation and mistrust amongst both "sides".

Indeed. The nature of war - especially an unpopular one with so many players and parties involved with competing interests - including Hezbollah btw, they easily have the ordinance/military power to carry out a strike of that magnitude -

Missiles and Rockets of Hezbollah | Missile Threat

Hezbollah is the world’s most heavily armed non-state actor, aptly described as “a militia trained like an army and equipped like a state.”

missilethreat.csis.org

Who on earth knows what’s going on out there … whatever is going on it will be an absolute hell for those innocent civilIan’s caught up in it - so idle speculation seems inappropriate tbh so I’ll not say anything else - other than I sincerely hope something can be done for these poor people - If I were a Palestine in any of the 50 or so large refugee camps around the Middle East, and especially those Palestinians in the West Bank I’d be filled with so much hate and sorrow seeing this being done to my people…

Interesting paper of today’s date on tunnel warfare:

Underground Nightmare: Hamas Tunnels and the Wicked Problem Facing the IDF - Modern War Institute

If Israel launches a ground campaign into Gaza to clear the dense areas of Hamas military capability—and all indications are that it intends to—Israeli forces can expect to face a […]

mwi.westpoint.edu

 

[LamieRobertson]

That'll be the RUSI think tank founded and still based in London, UK will it?

Thanks, but I think I'll wait for more independent information if that's ok.

It’s a source of information from an ‘expert’ …I merely (as others have done) posted something that seems to be relevant…choose to believe or not doesn’t bother me

 

[Badger Boy]

Whether it was an IDF strike, or a Palestinian/Hamas failed rocket which struck the hospital - could this not be a chance for both sides to think, f*** me. A hospital has been destroyed. What are we doing?

No.

 

[Zeberdi]

Jeremy Bowen on the BBC has suggested that it would be surprising if Hamas/Islamic Jihad had a missile powerful enough to cause the destruction seen.

Hezbollah has

 

[lawros left foot]

Unless they were storing other missiles at the hospital.

I think we can be sure Israel didn't deliberately target the hospital. Unless they had another massive intelligence failure, it must have been a misfire from somewhere - unless Hamas did it themselves. Almost nothing can be ruled out.

If the initial rogue Hamas rocket hit other missiles causing a massive explosion, how come there was only one explosion. No secondary explosions at all?

 

[Guinness Boy]

This Israeli colonel on the Today programme is doing his side no favours at all.

I’m no way expert enough to decide who is responsible for the attack but his interview was arrogant, hectoring, bullying and full of lies. That’s no way to get people in your side.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

The truth of this must come out.

I agree with Jeremty Bowen when he made the point, in a none to subtle way that Hamas rockets, in the past, have nothing like this sort of firepower.

It could be that they procured a more powerful rocket from Iran or somewhere and misfired it.

But far more plausible to me is that Israel did this

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I think we can be sure Israel didn't deliberately target the hospital.

That is clearly what you would LIKE to believe, but no - ‘we’ absolutely can not be ‘sure’ of that at all.

Given the evidence of the last few days - never mind the last few decades - that is at best, a very naive statement.

The time has come for the apologists of Israel’s actions to drop the pretence that either side are the ‘good guys’ in this horrific situation.

 

[Simster]

There is now quite a bit of independent analysis that is coming to the conclusion that may well have happened.

Not linking to it, it's easily found. The same volunteers who debunk claimed locations and timings of staged propaganda videos.

I clearly have no personal view either way.

I'm getting the impression this is largely being peddled by right wing Israeli sympathisers on Twitter.

But honestly, if this is a Hamas missile falling short, what are the odds it would hit a hospital slap bang in the middle killing thousands of its own people?

 

[Simster]

That is clearly what you would LIKE to believe, but no - ‘we’ absolutely can not be ‘sure’ of that at all.

Given the evidence of the last few days - never mind the last few decades - that is at best, a very naive statement.

The time has come for the apologists of Israel’s actions to drop the pretence that either side are the ‘good guys’ in this horrific situation.

It will never happen, but wouldn't it be lovely if the Arab world and the US could just take a step back, refuse all arms support - and just let those two absolutely awful governments sort it out themselves?

 

[clapham_gull]

I'm getting the impression this is largely being peddled by right wing Israeli sympathisers on Twitter.

But honestly, if this is a Hamas missile falling short, what are the odds it would hit a hospital slap bang in the middle killing thousands of its own people?

Not what I'm reading.

I don't take sides in this conflict, but the now "official" line from the Israeli Government that that a failed missile hit the car park and caused a huge fire appears plausible.

 

[Machiavelli]

This Israeli colonel on the Today programme is doing his side no favours at all.

I’m no way expert enough to decide who is responsible for the attack but his interview was arrogant, hectoring, bullying and full of lies. That’s no way to get people in your side.

Agreed, but this is nothing new. It's been going on for decades. The standard Likud/Israeli PR machine is just to steamroller through an interview, speak over the interviewer, make accusations, and not give them a chance to speak. Mark Regev is an absolute master at it.

 

[beorhthelm]

The truth of this must come out.

I agree with Jeremty Bowen when he made the point, in a none to subtle way that Hamas rockets, in the past, have nothing like this sort of firepower.

It could be that they procured a more powerful rocket from Iran or somewhere and misfired it.

But far more plausible to me is that Israel did this

the "firepower" is what it looks like and effect, not necessarily a powerful weapon. the Israeli claim is the missile would be full of fuel. it does look like a fire/incedary rather than high explosives, so the story has come consistancy and plausible. there's also the detail, unnecessary if its false story, that the missle came from a different group.

the alternative is an Israeli airstike targetting outside (not a hit on a building) with non-HE missile. thats less plausible.

 

[Hamilton]

Agreed, but this is nothing new. It's been going on for decades. The standard Likud/Israeli PR machine is just to steamroller through an interview, speak over the interviewer, make accusations, and not give them a chance to speak. Mark Regev is an absolute master at it.

That was an awful interview, at the end of which I just thought ‘well you guys did it.’

And great to hear Jeremy Bowen tell how the IDF blamed his reports for other governments condemning the attack when in reality their condemnation came out before he filed his reports.

I’d encourage anyone getting back up to speed with what’s going on to listen to Understand Israel and the Palestinians on Radio 4/BBC Sounds.

 

[Hastings gull]

Not what I'm reading.

I don't take sides in this conflict, but the now "official" line from the Israeli Government that that a failed missile hit the car park and caused a huge fire appears plausible.

Like most others, I assumed that it was a result of an air strike, given what has been happening. But then it all seems so convenient for Hamas. A hospital of all places, perhaps with inflated death toll figures, plus the fact that Biden is visiting today, and they hope he will now put pressure on the Israelis to re-consider invasion plans, as well as gambling on international outrage to further put pressure on the Israeli government. A decision to cancel an invasion would greatly help Hamas to remain intact to a greater extent and thus be all too ready to continue their terrorism. It is indeed hard to think that they would knowingly kill their own to further their aims, regarding the victims as pawns, but it has been widely reported over the years that civilians are being used as human shields, so I would not put anything past such a foul organisation.

 

[clapham_gull]

Like most others, I assumed that it was a result of an air strike, given what has been happening. But then it all seems so convenient for Hamas. A hospital of all places, perhaps with inflated death toll figures, plus the fact that Biden is visiting today, and they hope he will now put pressure on the Israelis to re-consider invasion plans, as well as gambling on international outrage to further put pressure on the Israeli government. A decision to cancel an invasion would greatly help Hamas to remain intact to a greater extent and thus be all too ready to continue their terrorism. It is indeed hard to think that they would knowingly kill their own to further their aims, regarding the victims as pawns, but it has been widely reported over the years that civilians are being used as human shields, so I would not put anything past such a foul organisation.

Not sure anyone is suggesting it was deliberate.