[News] Middle East conflict

[LamieRobertson]

I've thought about this from a slightly different angle most of this week...

One morning earlier this week, probably Tuesday, I was out for my regular early morning walk on the Downs with the dog. I nearly always listen to the 5Live breakfast show whilst on this walk and, on that particular day, they interviewed two people.

The first interviewee was in Gaza and spoke about the impact that the Israeli bombing was already having.

The following interviewee was in Israel and her sister was missing, presumed dead or taken hostage. At the very beginning of the interview, she hit back at the caller before her, saying that Gaza had brought it upon themselves and they didn't deserve power, water, medicine etc, and did deserve the might of Israel's army and air force. She was clearly in a terrible place, quite understandable given the fate she imagined had befallen her sister.

This made me wonder: what if, somehow, something similar had happened here. Let's pretend the Isle of Wight (pretty much the same size as Gaza coincidentally) was home to a terrorist organisation that wanted to cause us all harm and, at some point, managed to get in and perform the atrocities that Hamas inflicted on Israel. If I'd lost friends or family or, perhaps even if I hadn't, how would I feel if the RAF took to carpet-bombing the Isle of Wight to take out the terrorists but, also, kill untold others - all innocent bystanders?

Would I, like the Israeli interviewee, essentially think "f*** them all - they all deserve it?" or would I somehow be able to separate the bad guys from the good guys and find it in myself to see the scale of the vengeance as wrong?

I've only been able to conclude that I don't know the answer to that - it's unimaginable.

In the same way, I don't know what Israel should be doing now, but I very much fear for the consequences of the path they seem to be taking.

Very well put ..mirrored my own thoughts at times this week

 

[Bakero]

I love the recommendation that if you are Jewish don’t join NSC - if only he knew the slagging off I‘ve from some posters for not being Jewish enough!

The poster that suggested you were not sufficiently Jewish is the same bloke making ridiculous claims on the Argus site.

 

[shingle]

Okay, I'll have a go at this.

1. Immediate Action
- send every available soldier to the areas of incursion to wipe out or capture every one of the terrorist fighters still on Israeli soil, and protect and assist the traumatised survivors.
- send all available medics to save the injured and vulnerable
- send officials, police and photographers, preferably with neutral UN observers to record each and every atrocity

2. Stage 2
- Reseal all of the points breached in the security wall, to prevent any further incursion
- urgent review of why the warning systems failed so catastrophically

That's what I would have done on Sunday - and frankly is the easy part. What to do next is the hard bit - but it definitely wouldn't be to drop 6,000 bombs on civilian targets (including the hundreds of my own people taken hostage).

Unfortunately Hamas would still be in place and untouched.

 

[Krafty]

Stalin stated that "a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic" and I'm slightly worried this might ring true in the next few days

I'm fearful that Gaza will become a wasteland soon, but that is my personal prediction.

 

[Zeberdi]

If you were the Israeli government how would you have responded on Sunday morning when the full horror of the previous days attacks were becoming apparent.?

I ask this question based on the assumption that people agree with Israel's right to existance. I'm sorry if the first bit sounds facetious, its not meant to be.

I’m answering based on the assumption you are not trolling to inlamme the debate

- since I don’t share a far right ideology, probably would not have been in a Netanyahuistic form of government in the first place.

However, not withstanding all the reasons why Netanyahu is the antithesis of the kind of leader I would be, Netanyahu should have taken more time (not a few hours!) before telling the world that Israel was going to obliterate the presence of Hamas in Gaza - he publicly committed to an unachievable objective out of anger and in an impatient kneejerk reaction that will require an overwhelming level of force not only causing the death and destruction of 1000s of Gazans a third of which will be children but his also own soldiers - all to save a failing political career and appease the religious extremist Zionists that prop up his administration.

- now he is hoist with his own petard .

I’m so angry at what he is doing in Gaza while the world looks on, I cant speak

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Unfortunately Hamas would still be in place and untouched.

As they are now.

 

[Eeyore]

Meanwhile, in Brighton...

Terror police arrest woman over Palestinian rally speech

Terror police have arrested a 22-year-old woman over a speech at a protest rally in Brighton last weekend, in which

www.brightonandhovenews.org

Yes, very disturbing that someone would condone the violence of the weekend. There is nothing to celebrate in such murders.

But that feature and its viral spread are part of the problem. That woman only represents a small number of people, as indeed extreme Zionistic views only represent a small number of people. The voices that encourage peaceful reasoning get annexed into forums such as this and elsewhere.

I've seen most of the comments in NSC. None advocate the voice of that woman. Only a few advocate support for the extreme action of the Israeli government. Yet those voices are lost.

This is yours and my society as much as theirs. I wouldn't even give them the column width on a board like this. They do not reflect the standards and values of most. Their desire to be part of 'something' has turned their brains to mush. And dangerously so.

 

[Giraffe]

The one thing I am sure of is that when Israel have finished their revenge mission: there'll be a whole new generation of people hellbent on exacting revenge on Israel when they get the chance. And they'll be happy to wait until they see the time as right to do that.

I do agree but like you said above I just don't have an answer. I just think it is unfair to judge the Israeli's given the context of what they have suffered. I couldn't imagine showing control if my community was attacked in this way. I'm not sure many of us could hand on heart say we could either. Maybe it's because i am a parent including a 3 year old, but the thought of people coming in a killing innocent babies makes my blood boil. And yes I fully appreciate that sadly the same suffering will now happen in Gaza, but what else can they do but try and now destroy Hamas?

 

[SeagullinExile]

When Hamas surrenders, then Palestine can get on with its life.

Hamas is Nazi Germany, small scale. They kill Jews, they kill homosexuals, they kill anyone they don't like. they don't have elections, they continually run small scale (ie. omly murdering one or two) incursions and rockets fired into Israel. They are evil. That, at least, I hope we can all agree on.

So what should be done to fight them? Should the UK have avoided bombing Germany because they didn't want to kill civilians? Should we have accepted the bombs and rockets fired into the UK and said "we are better than them, we don't need to fight back"? Should we have seen that Germans were short of food and sent them some over? No. And that was the general opinion at the time.

When the Nazis were removed, then Germany recovered. Germany wouldn't have recovered if the Nazi government had been allowed to continue ruling.

The fire bombing of Dresden was unnecessary. Germany was on it’s knees. That operation targeted civilians to break their will. It was wrong then and it’s wrong now.

 

[borat]

I've thought about this from a slightly different angle most of this week...

One morning earlier this week, probably Tuesday, I was out for my regular early morning walk on the Downs with the dog. I nearly always listen to the 5Live breakfast show whilst on this walk and, on that particular day, they interviewed two people.

The first interviewee was in Gaza and spoke about the impact that the Israeli bombing was already having.

The following interviewee was in Israel and her sister was missing, presumed dead or taken hostage. At the very beginning of the interview, she hit back at the caller before her, saying that Gaza had brought it upon themselves and they didn't deserve power, water, medicine etc, and did deserve the might of Israel's army and air force. She was clearly in a terrible place, quite understandable given the fate she imagined had befallen her sister.

This made me wonder: what if, somehow, something similar had happened here. Let's pretend the Isle of Wight (pretty much the same size as Gaza coincidentally) was home to a terrorist organisation that wanted to cause us all harm and, at some point, managed to get in and perform the atrocities that Hamas inflicted on Israel. If I'd lost friends or family or, perhaps even if I hadn't, how would I feel if the RAF took to carpet-bombing the Isle of Wight to take out the terrorists but, also, kill untold others - all innocent bystanders?

Would I, like the Israeli interviewee, essentially think "f*** them all - they all deserve it?" or would I somehow be able to separate the bad guys from the good guys and find it in myself to see the scale of the vengeance as wrong?

I've only been able to conclude that I don't know the answer to that - it's unimaginable.

In the same way, I don't know what Israel should be doing now, but I very much fear for the consequences of the path they seem to be taking.

It follows and is rationale that someone (in this case Israeli) wants retribution for a family member possible death. Even more so in the days and weeks following the event.

You can perform the same thought experiment the other way round but imagine you are actually on the Isle of Wight alongside people that are, kept in a open prison, and have been captive for decades (many since birth). You have multiple family members killed, live in poverty, electricity restricted and can never leave.

It would be rationale for the people of Isle of Wight to have a deep hatred for the perpetrators and wish harm on them through any means possible. It's shouldn't be a big surprise to anyone that Hamas exists under those inhumane conditions. Isle of Wight would have its own version with a different name.

 

[WATFORD zero]

The Israeli army have confirmed that the beheaded babies story is false. I have checked various news sources and cannot find any evidence to prove it is true.

And yet how many times has that been referenced on this thread with absolutely no source alone ? Obviously it's achieved it's purpose to spread and increase hatred and fear whether it turns out to be true or not.

The first casualty, when war comes, is truth

 

[Thunder Bolt]

That's good news. It's nice to know that they were only shooting dozens of bullets into babies, and not beheading them. Seen the Daily Telegraph (and I dare say other papers) this morning?

All death is horrific in war, but lying about the manner of death causes more distress than it needs to be. The biggest casualty of war is truth. Journalists have a responsibility to report the truth.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Interference in those deals was clearly one of the Hamas objectives but long term both Saudi and UAE know they need Israel to help bolster them against Iran. Note neither Saudi nor UAE can give lectures on not bombing civilians.....

proportionate response, 6000 bombs on many unknown targets, levelling civilian areas and displacing 15% of Gaza's population is not proportionate.

They may feel better after last weeks atrocity but it won't meet what their desired goal.

Hamas IMO have set a trap for Israel and by falling for it they Israel destroy the chance of new relationships with their neighbours and with it opportunities for lucrative trade with UAE, Saudi etc.

 

[Zeberdi]

The genocide about to be carried out in Gaza with the enthusiastic backing of every "democratic" Western nation shows how little human civilization has advanced from the 19th century. It is a curse to be alive in such barbaric times and watch helplessly these premeditated mass executions.

I couldn’t agree more with your sentiments -to me the World has evolved to an extremely complex system of multi-nationals with no accountability, where Nation States are unhappy bedfellows tangled up in a myriad of duplicitous allegiances based on fuel, international arms deals, trade and water supplies - where human life is bartered in exchange for advancing the self interests of the State and where the cost of doing business is doing nothing to stop the slaughter .
The World itself has advanced to a technological age beyond anything that could have been imagined by our forefathers but we are barely down from the trees when it comes to living in it and with each other.

 

[Giraffe]

Part of Israel's problem is they are surrounded. the fact that at any time others may enter the fight from all sides of Israel always means they go above and beyond. They have always felt they need to respond disproportionately every time.

Just saw this, which kind of highlights it. Lots of potential for this to spread into others having a go, which is what the US in particular have warned against.

Israeli army fires towards Lebanon after explosion at border fence​

The Israel Defense Forces say an explosion caused "light damage" to a security fence on Israel's border with Lebanon, near the northern kibbutz of Hanita. Its troops are "responding with artillery fire toward Lebanese territory," the IDF said in a statement.
"Additionally, an alert was activated concerning the infiltration of terrorists into the community. IDF soldiers are currently searching the area."
There are fears a new front could open up in the war if Lebanese Shia movement Hezbollah decides to get involved and attack Israel in support of its Palestinian allies.

 

[Wardy's twin]

If Hamas win this battle/war/elimination of Israel, will that result in Iraq and Iran getting along and all the other arab states (Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Egypt etc etc ) that seem to be in permanent conflict becoming peaceful...? And will they be nicer to all their ethnic minorities..?

Iraq and Iran already get along as the Shia majority in Iraq have the government. There are internal divisions in Iraq, Sunni are still in conflict with the Shias and the Kurds want their own state, there often boarder incidents between them and Iran.

Iran wants to establish a Shia dominated area through the Arab countries to the Mediterranean and that includes removal of Israel. How that leaves the Sunni population in that area is open to question.

 

[Bakero]

Source: FT

 

[Wozza]

View attachment 168023

Source: FT

Approx 44% of the Gaza population is aged 14 or under.

 

[aolstudios]

Meanwhile, in Brighton...

Terror police arrest woman over Palestinian rally speech

Terror police have arrested a 22-year-old woman over a speech at a protest rally in Brighton last weekend, in which

www.brightonandhovenews.org

Excellent. This was absolutely shameful

 

[aolstudios]

Unfortunately Hamas would still be in place and untouched.

Well, exactly