[News] Middle East conflict

[heathgate]

Interesting tweet from John Simpson on this, following on from pressure from Starmer and Shapps that the BBC should refer to Hamas as terrorists rather than militants.
On a related note, one thing that's notable is that politicians currently are very keen on trotting out that 'Israel has a right to defend itself' (it does, in my view) whereas the parallel statement that 'Palestine has a right to defend itself' never gets uttered. If you can unpack why this is the case, then you're basically at the heart of the issue.

Palestinian

My bolding.

Shame many of those air strikes have been "targeted" at refugee camps.

Dozens killed as Israeli airstrikes hit Gaza refugee camp – video report

Israel has intensified its bombardment of the Gaza Strip in retaliation to Hamas’s unprecedented cross-border incursion

www.theguardian.com

Totally agree that Israel should go after the Hamas terrorists but their carpet bombing of refugee camps and other civilian areas suggests that their motive is not to exact revenge on the terrorists but to punish the Palestinan people and take over the Gaza strip.

Just IMHO of course.

Bearing in mind that Hamas have always squirreled away their key storage and logistics units in amongst civilians, that collateral damage is something the IDF have always accepted as part of the price of destroying the terrorists.... I guess us in the west, our governments, are a bit more squeamish and apply l more moderation in targeting amongst civilians, though it cannot be avoided in every instance.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I say this as a somewhat random, non-Brighton supporting member of NSC, but I think that mixing football talk with all topics of daily life, some important, some trivial, is this forum’s greatest strength.

Keeping everything together in one place keeps topics fresh and engaged with, something that in my experience gets lost when you fragment forums into football and non-football sections. Inevitably, some of the topics that then arise will be emotionally intense and divisive, and with any cross-section of society you will find the occasional views of the left and right amidst the more balanced views of those in the centre.

To that end, when you make it harder to access or give less prominence to divisive subject matters, such as this, inevitably it is those with the most extreme views, that feel most motivated to comment that will do so. If anything, you lose balance that way.

It’s a shame when sensible commentary and debate descends into bitterness and tit for tat vitriol, but it’s sadly ironic that this is pretty much the essence of the topic being discussed in this thread.

If you changed the fundamental fabric of NSC, I think you’d be surprised at what you’d lose.

Yep. We mix the serious and the fun stuff with all the aplomb of Ally McCoist of Talksport

 

[nicko31]

So with the UK governments clear line 100% support of Israel I guess we won't be doing any more deals with the Qataris? Not to mention RAF Squadron and all that...

Hamas maintains its main office in Doha an receives a large part of its funding from there, reportedly between $360 million and $480 million a year, a third goes to pay the salaries of Hamas bureaucrats

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Now they want the Wembley arch lit up in the colours of the Israeli flag. Football should always remain non political in my view.

It's a tough one, where do you stop? You then can't fine/stop other countries for doing them, like the home nations did for the poppies, Serbia/Albania etc

At the same time, banning the poppies was dumb as would showing support for people being murdered.

A blanket ban seems the easiest option, if not the correct one.

 

[Zeberdi]

Fair enough.

It feels like one of those times where the site is running a bit out of control, with people taking the opportunity to take potshots at others here, there and everywhere.

I'm usually pretty thick-skinned on all of this, but do bite sometimes if I feel some criticism is unwarranted.

Apologies for striking out.

I am genuinely interested though - as I'm working on some things in the background - what would your ideal BHAFC site look like? What features would it have?

Separate threads for off topic posts possibly -

 

[Krafty]

Now they want the Wembley arch lit up in the colours of the Israeli flag. Football should always remain non political in my view.

I don't like all of the support for Israel, however I understand the reasons behind why they are doing this as the Jewish nation has close ties with the UK.
As many have previously said this isn't a football match where you "support" a side, this is a horrific conflict which has seen lots of innocent civilians dead or seriously injured in Israel and Palestine - there are always good people across the world, and I hope they will prevail in the long term.

 

[Zeberdi]

Yesterday you were given a warning for posting vitriolic abuse on this thread and today you are moaning this thread being here

there’s a connection there I think

 

[Zeberdi]

ffs

Breaking News, World News and Video from Al Jazeera

News, analysis from the Middle East & worldwide, multimedia & interactives, opinions, documentaries, podcasts, long reads and broadcast schedule.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[dsr-burnley]

Would you blow up a food bank and then complain that they don't feed you any more? If Israel is the Gaza Strip's food bank, it shows how monumentally stupid they are for attacking them. (Or more likely. how determined they are to eliminate Israel even at the expense of their own people's suffering.)

They've had 20 years in power and loads of available funds from Iran - they could have built their own power stations. What did they spend it on?

Hamas has given up on responsibility for their own people. The only option is that Hamas should be removed from power. Who's going to do it?

 

[borat]

OK, but you didn't say this in your original post.

You said that he was advocating breaking international law.

I doubt your and my sympathies are much different, but you're continually putting partial and misleading information on the internet. Here you're getting picked up, by in other places you won't and there we go down that path of different sections of society totally believing different things. Surely this is the root cause of this and so many of the problems we face in the world

He agreed that Israel has the right to enforce a siege on Gaza. How does one acheive that without breaking international law? Please do explain.

Interviewer: ''A siege is appropriate, cutting off power, cutting of water, Sir Kier?
Starmer: I think that Israel does have that right''

The simplest way to answer you is after having listened to this clip would the audience deduce that a) Starmer is pushing back on Israels plans and coming out against the threat of a siege or b) is he saying its ok

I interpret it as him saying its ok .... ''I think Israel has that right''. You may think otherwise because he later mentions international law (an impossible thing to achieve). Thats ok but please dont accuse me of misinformation when the words came out of his mouth.

The broader point is Starmer is so keen to please Israel that he cant even push back strongly against the potential imposition of war crimes.

I wont elaborate on this point further but have a good rest of the day.

 

[Krafty]

Oh how I wish there was a better football forum for Brighton and Hove Albion instead of this one, which has now been presented with the perfect storm of a lull in football games and a major terrorist incursion on foreign lands.

I think that it is important that this forum can allow discussion about significant events that are happening across the world; I have learnt so much from the wonderful people of NSC and there have been many fascinating stories from those related to this awful conflict. There is also access to football related topics, and a tab which exclusively shows threads which are connected to the Albion, so you can engage in discussion there however it is currently the international break.

Despite this, I feel like there are areas of NSC that could be improved but this question should probably be posted on a separate thread.

 

[Machiavelli]

Mine would be NSC circa 2005. Everyone was a lot less precious and a lot less serious then, it was more fun.

Can that be arranged?

Having seen the first page of the Holly Willoughby thread (granted, it was started in 2010), you're welcome to it, and I'll carry on enjoying the current iteration.

 

[Machiavelli]

Palestinian

Bearing in mind that Hamas have always squirreled away their key storage and logistics units in amongst civilians, that collateral damage is something the IDF have always accepted as part of the price of destroying the terrorists.... I guess us in the west, our governments, are a bit more squeamish and apply l more moderation in targeting amongst civilians, though it cannot be avoided in every instance.

Are you claiming that I'm from Palestine?

 

[Hamilton]

He adds "within the context of international law" but says Israel "does have that right" to the question about withholding.

Interesting to learn how a siege that withholds electricity and water from a captive population would work without breaking international law. The broader point is he is so keen not to provide any balance or context to the situation and show

It wouldn't be new for Israel to be breaking international law. It doesn't seem to apply in their case.

Chapter 3: Israeli Settlements and International Law

www.amnesty.org

It will be interesting to see whether the Israeli State withholding the transfer of a commodity like power/water from the Palestinian National Authority (over which Israel has no control) is an international crime in law. They may argue that they have ceased trading that commodity. Theoretically, Egypt could supply power, but as the Egyptians dislike Hamas as well, that's unlikely.

I don't think Starmer can say much more about the situation. There's little the UK can do but express alarm and concern. We really don't have much sway in the world anymore.

 

[fly high]

That's the crux of it. Likewise why an interviewee representing the Palestinians is immediately asked to condemn violence but the same is never asked of an Israeli.

Jeremy Bowen came pretty close to it when he challenged a senior officer at the site of the kibbutz slaughter asking if the government was right to bomb Gaza.

 

[Insel affe]

Jeremy Bowen came pretty close to it when he challenged a senior officer at the site of the kibbutz slaughter asking if the government was right to bomb Gaza.

Jeremy Bowen is a bloody hero, I fear for his safety sometimes, a real legend.

 

[keaton]

But can u gave that as a default setting? Isn’t it currently where u have to click something each time you come to the site ..if u get what I mean?

Don't know. But you could save that as a favourite or your landing page?

 

[The Fifth Column]

The loss of innocent civilian lives on both sides is horrific and tragic in equal measure, but worse still if they have been deliberately targeted and slaughtered in their beds and beheaded as seems the case for some Israelis attacked by Hamas terrorists. Hamas are the enemy of their own people because they would have known and anticipated that the Israeli response would be brutal and unforgiving, it does nothing to further their cause or legitimize their rule over Gaza in fact it has the complete opposite effect. Palestinian people still supporting Hamas need to take a long hard look at themselves as they survey the destruction and death rained down on them by the Israelis - Its cause and effect in action.

 

[fly high]

I’m not Jewish.

In 1981 as a 20-year old bloke, a mate and I saw a flyer in London for Project 67. It was a recruitment drive to get people to go to Israel and volunteer on a Kibbutz. There was a pre-meet in London and there were 30 or so people there and LOADS of fit women. We signed up thinking sex, sun and booze rather than politics. Our assigned Kibbutz was at the base of the Golan heights on the shore of the Kinneret (Galilee). Beautiful place run by Jewish descendants of the Russian royal family’s gardeners! The work was hard. The partying was harder. It was an unbelievable experience that shaped my life in ways I cannot articulate even now. But given this thread I’ll talk about the Israeli psyche as I see it. At that time there were still survivors of the holocaust working with us in the bananas, dates, fishponds. Their sons and daughters (many my age) were first gen Israelis. There were burnt out T55 tanks just above the borders of the fields on the slopes of the Golan. Yom Kippur was only 8-years before. The kibbutz was a fortified compound with goon towers and bomb shelters. Everyone was armed (to the teeth). Everyone was f***ed off with conflict. They wanted a diplomatic solution but thought it a fanciful idea when certain actors wanted Israel wiped off the face of the Earth. The two kibbutzniks my mate and I worked in the fishponds with were 23 and 25. One was a fighter pilot, the other a tank commander. One day Yossi threw ME the keys to the tractor and said could we handle the ponds for a couple of days - they’d both been called to urgent duty - along with 30 or so other members. This was the Iraqi nuclear plant operation and Israel’s response planning. They appeared scared. At that time Israel was (as we now realised) on a continuous war-footing. They were shaping their iron-fist diplomacy. All the levers of power were controlled by genocide survivors and their progeny. They wanted peace but would fight to the death if attacked. It was real Old-Testament stuff by people who had witnessed the Nazi’s final solution first hand.

I’d told my missus for years that if you wanted to understand geopolitics and it’s entwinement with religion you had to visit Jerusalem. We went back in 2022. The region is still f***ed up, more than ever - and Israel felt torn and was very different to the society I’d met as a kid. In 1981 Jerusalem felt medieval with dusty streets and little development or (visible) security around the wailing wall. I even (as a non-believer) was able to visit the Dome of the Rock! The old city worked as a melting pot and there was an (uneasy) truce. Today Jerusalem is a fortress and it absolutely felt that the Jewish orthodoxy held sway over Christianity and had silenced the Muslims. The Israeli clarity of purpose in the face of Netanyahu’s policies appeared to be fragile.

IMHO, Hamas has poked the bear because it wants any nascent Israeli liberalism to crumble. It wants a unified Israel to come out slugging led by a far-right coalition (it’s got its wish). It wants a ground offensive and close quarters guerilla fighting. Israel has blown its own foot off with its treatment of Gaza and the West Bank/occupied territories particularly since 9/11. Tens of thousands of Palestinians are being sacrificed and thousands of Israelis will die. Most if not all Israelis are scared. All Palestinians in Gaza are terrified. There are very malevolent forces at work here. Israel should, for once, turn the other cheek - even in the face of precedence setting provocation. Then it should get round the table and sort out the two-state solution. Jerusalem should become a Globally-controlled, United Nations protectorate for all-time. That piece of land has been fought over for thousands of years. Neutrality has never been more important.
ALL pie in the sky because everything is too raw and too f***ed up.

I have long thought Jerusalem should be an independent state in it's own right overseen by the UN & controlled by a 3 way equal share between Jews, Christians & Muslims. Obviously it is the holiest city on earth to Jews & Christians & over the centuries Muslims have built holy sites. To ensure no 2/3rds could gang up on the single 3rd the should be a 75% majority for decisions so they were forced to work in the best interests of everyone, As you say, pie in the sky.

 

[fly high]

Now they want the Wembley arch lit up in the colours of the Israeli flag. Football should always remain non political in my view.

What about banning Russian football teams? Is that not political?