[News] Middle East conflict

[borat]

That's not the army it's being instructed to do so by the current government.

Have you seen how the IDF treat Palestinians on a day to day basis? I won't start posting videos but cursory research will show them exhibiting degrading and violent treatment on a daily basis. They are also prone to murder by sniper (including 22 journalists).

This is anecdotal of course but I met members of post IDF trained Israeli travellers at a party in South America year ago. They were singing songs and telling jokes about killing Palestinians. They will be indoctrinated into hating them as part of the training. It follows as it makes it much easier to oppress and kill someone when you are brainwashed to see them as a lesser being.

 

[Bozza]

What country drops leaflets from the sky, sends out text messages & announces for civilians to leave. Only Israel.

Wikipedia has a whole article on Airborne Leaflet Propaganda if you want a correct answer to the question you asked yourself.

Airborne leaflet propaganda - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Wardy's twin]

Starmer lost my vote at the next election after his comments about the siege. I cannot support a party leader who is happy to the condone the death of thousands of innocents so as to maintain a public image. I can't get that out my head. Especially from a lawyer who is well versed in human rights.

Spoilt ballot paper it is. Starmer lost every ounce of respect I had for him in that one statement.

At this time with an election a year off (and depending where you live) a non vote for labour is a vote for the Tories....

 

[Thunder Bolt]

That's not the army it's being instructed to do so by the current government.

Who are arresting some deeply religious Jews for refusing to serve in the army.

As for telling civilians to leave the area, they are unable to, because all the exits are closed. Even Egypt has closed its border.

 

[Hugo Rune]

What country drops leaflets from the sky, sends out text messages & announces for civilians to leave. Only Israel.

Evacuation orders?. It’s not only Isreal. The likes of Russia commit war crimes too.

Israel's 'order to relocate' is a 'war crime', says head of Norwegian Refugee Council

The head of the Norwegian Refugee Council, Jan Egeland, says Israel's order for more than a million people in northern Gaza to evacuate amounts to a "forcible transfer" of a population and is a "war crime" under international humanitarian law.

news.sky.com

 

[Hugo Rune]

There will be peace, a two state solution, giving back of settlements & land when the Palestinians, Israel & the world are free from Hamas.

USA has largely cleansed the world from ISIS.
Israel needs to do its job & the western world governments know that.

In Israel we trust.

Why wasn’t there a two state solution prior to the formation of Hamas in 1987?

 

[1066familyman]

Bit Trumpian ..

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces | The Times of Israel

www.timesofisrael.com

More like the oldest trick in the book of divide and rule.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

If Hamas is the sole problem, why wasn't there a 2-state solution with no land-grabbing before the formation of Hamas?

Additionally, how is a war on civilians going to win hearts and minds? A generation will be radicalised.

I had a look at the vid posted by @Wozza that was very informative. One thing that was glossed over was the six day war that resulted in the annexing of the west bank. As far as I can see it was triggered by repeated pissy troublemaking by the Arab neighbours. The last straw was Egypt blocking Israeli shipping around Suez. Israel responded in what has become its hallmark vigorous fashion with air strikes taking out most of Egypt's air force, and Nasser resigned in shame. Syria took the opportunity to attack in the north. As a consequence Israel annexed a great deal of land including the Golan heights from which Syria launched its attacks, and the west bank. So, yes, you are right @bakeroo. There is no evidence at all that the neighbouring states and the Palestinians would leave well alone if Hamas dissolved. If I were Israeli I would perceive that the neighbours and Iran want to throw me in the sea, and I would probably reluctantly accept that containment (in Gaza) and smiting when anything kicks off is necessary until the day the Palestinians and the neighbours (including Iran) declare that enough is enough and it is time to be pals. I see absolutely no sign of that so the Palestinians in particularly are in an endless cycle of acting up and self-harm.

From Wikipedia:

In May 1967, Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser announced that the Straits of Tiran would again be closed to Israeli vessels. He subsequently mobilized the Egyptian military into defensive lines along the border with Israel[33] and ordered the immediate withdrawal of all UNEF personnel.[34][26]

On 5 June 1967, as the UNEF was in the process of leaving the zone, Israel launched a series of preemptive airstrikes against Egyptian airfields and other facilities, launching its war effort.[26] Egyptian forces were caught by surprise, and nearly all of Egypt's military aerial assets were destroyed, giving Israel air supremacy. Simultaneously, the Israeli military launched a ground offensive into Egypt's Sinai Peninsula as well as the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip. After some initial resistance, Nasser ordered an evacuation of the Sinai Peninsula; by the sixth day of the conflict, Israel had occupied the entire Sinai Peninsula.[35] Jordan, which had entered into a defense pact with Egypt just a week before the war began, did not take on an all-out offensive role against Israel. However, the Jordanians did launch attacks against Israeli forces to slow Israel's advance.[36] On the fifth day, Syria joined the war by shelling Israeli positions in the north.[37]

Egypt and Jordan agreed to a ceasefire on 8 June, and Syria on 9 June, and it was signed with Israel on 11 June. The Six-Day War resulted in more than 20,000 fatal Arab casualties, while Israel suffered fewer than 1,000 fatal casualties. Alongside the combatant casualties were the deaths of 20 Israeli civilians killed in Arab forces air strikes on Jerusalem, 15 UN peacekeepers killed by Israeli strikes in the Sinai at the outset of the war, and 34 US personnel killed in the USS Liberty incident in which Israeli air forces struck a United States Navy technical research ship.

At the time of the cessation of hostilities, Israel had seized Syria's Golan Heights, the Jordanian-annexed West Bank (including East Jerusalem), and Egypt's Sinai Peninsula as well as the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip. The displacement of civilian populations as a result of the Six-Day War would have long-term consequences, as around 280,000 to 325,000 Palestinians and 100,000 Syrians fled or were expelled from the West Bank[38] and the Golan Heights, respectively.[39] Nasser resigned in shame following Israel's victory, but was later reinstated following a series of protests across Egypt. In the aftermath of the conflict, Egypt closed the Suez Canal until 1975, eventually leading to the 1970s energy crisis and 1973 oil crisis due to the impact on oil deliveries coming to Europe from the Middle East through the Suez Canal.[

 

[1066familyman]

Yep, for as long as there are humans on this earth, there will always be war and suffering - we just can't help ourselves. I honestly believe 99 percent of the worlds population want peace and happiness but it's those one percent nut jobs that happen to get into positions of power effectively brainwash societies into one way or another. I would hope things would be different...

I agree. However, large swathes of the rest of us are essentially aiding and abetting the one percent of nut jobs.

All the while most humans value material possessions and power over others so highly, we'll likely never be capable of peaceful coexistence.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

This type of event is what eventually lead to peace in Northern Ireland when women on both sides joined together. The only way in the end for things to change is when both sides realise continued violence is not the way. Hamas and the like will never change but like the IRA can find they have less support.

Yes. Bloody men and their bloody pride. And I say that as a bloke.

 

[Zeberdi]

Unfortunately Hamas is not just the Palestinian’s or Israel’s problem but the worlds problem. Even Egypt won’t open their border to Palestinians - been effectively closed since 2007,

Fact check? - The border is closed apart from the Rafah crossing for the movement of Palestinian people which remains open and has done for years and which the Egyptian government has urged Israel not to target. It became damaged by Israeli shelling at the start of the War - it is the only access out of Gaza into Egypt (2007, all crossings out of Gaza were shut down except for the Rafah and Erez crossings, which were designated for the movement of people, and the Karem Abu Salem crossing, which was designated for the transport of goods)

Egypt ‘indefinitely’ opens Rafah border crossing with Gaza Strip

Move comes as Palestinian factions agree to ‘respect and accept’ results of upcoming polls at Cairo talks.

www.aljazeera.com

Egypt urges Israel not to target Rafah border crossing with Gaza Strip

Egypt urges Israel not to target Rafah border crossing with Gaza Strip-

english.news.cn

(All goods and services into and from Gaza controlled on the Israeli/Gaza border) but even though the aim of ‘preventing’ the export of Hamas terrorism into Egypt, security of the Egyptian -Gaza border has come at a heavy price for the Palestinian people resulting in the destruction of thousands of homes and hardship -Between July 2013 and August 2015, Egyptian authorities demolished at least 3,255 residential, commercial, administrative, and community buildings along the border, forcibly evicting thousands of people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–Gaza_border


Salah al-Din Gate in Rafah[33]

so it is Israel who supply the water, electricity & the flow of goods & services …. & in return the Israelis receive missiles from Hamas every year.

And Israel, responds with increasing impunity to International Human Rights - Between 2008 and 2021, at least 5,739 Palestinians and 251 Israelis were killed. Of those killed on the Palestinian side at least 1,255 (22 percent) were children and 565 (10 percent) were women. On the Israeli side 121 (48 percent) of those killed were security forces as categorised by the UN.

‘Supply’ is a very questionable way to describe Israels role - Israel was asked to withdraw her troops from the Occupied Territory under UN Security Council resolution but she still retained control of the air, sea, the borders and passage of goods and services in and out of Gaza with an embargo on key goods and aid - She remains illegally in Occupation, imposing military control on the Palestinian peoples without any basic protection or rights under International Law and which are the ‘key causes of recurrent instability and protraction of conflict in the region’. Since the blockade was established in 2005, the lives of ordinary Gazans have been traumatised and degraded into a humanitarian crisis:

https://www.unrwa.org/what_the_Gaza_blockade_means

The civilised western world governments are overwhelmingly in support of Israel. There will be some tutting,

Sadly not enough from Western Governments but dangerously a lot from civilian populations across the Arab world who BTW are also ‘civilised’

but Israel will now sort this problem out once & for all.

And once Hamas is hopefully erased please God the poor subjected Palestinian people can get on with their lives & elect a government in fair elections - who knows in years to come, there could be peace, friendship & alliances just as Israel has now with former enemies.

That’s not going to happen, Israel‘s way of ‘sorting out this problem’ has proven time and time again that it perpetuates violence and armed resistance in the region. This time, she may have gone too far and we (as allies of Israel/US be sucked into a war with Iran or in the least, left with a population of Palestinians who are dead, or dying, or homeless refugees in a devastated territory where the infrastructure has albeit been destroyed- ‘Hamas’ is not an enemy consisting of a tightly knit group of fighters who are easily recognisable - they are political and armed resisters who have support and backing and a physical presence that far exceeds the boundaries of a tiny land strip quarter of the size of London.

 

[1066familyman]

Unfortunately Hamas is not just the Palestinian’s or Israel’s problem but the worlds problem. Even Egypt won’t open their border to Palestinians - been effectively closed since 2007, so it is Israel who supply the water, electricity & the flow of goods & services …. & in return the Israelis receive missiles from Hamas every year.

The civilised western world governments are overwhelmingly in support of Israel. There will be some tutting, but Israel will now sort this problem out once & for all.

And once Hamas is hopefully erased please God the poor subjected Palestinian people can get on with their lives & elect a government in fair elections - who knows in years to come, there could be peace, friendship & alliances just as Israel has now with former enemies.

What is your view please on documented support, as reported by
Haaretz, of Hamas by Netanyahu?

I'm not all the way through the thread yet, but so far I haven't seen you respond to the Haaretz link @Bakero posted earlier.

Edit: This is the specific bit I'm
referring to from the tweet that @A1X shared.

 

[aolstudios]

If Hamas is the sole problem, why wasn't there a 2-state solution with no land-grabbing before the formation of Hamas?

Additionally, how is a war on civilians going to win hearts and minds? A generation will be radicalised.

Before Hamas there was the PLO (among others), cutting the genitals off athletes prior to murdering them

 

[aolstudios]

Why wasn’t there a two state solution prior to the formation of Hamas in 1987?

Before Hamas there was the PLO (among others), cutting the genitals off athletes prior to murdering them

 

[Si Gull]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67108364

Targetting a designated evacuation route is surely a War Crime. I can't imagine the hatred that drives people to act like this. Truly shocking.

 

[Bozza]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67108364

Targetting a designated evacuation route is surely a War Crime. I can't imagine the hatred that drives people to act like this. Truly shocking.

...

Only Israel.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I think that assessment of Israel’s ‘psychological perspective’ is probably true and is borne out of a history of persecution and as you say, being a small island of unique ethno-religious culture in the ME - there is always a risk but I think no less so than the risk Ukraine is to Russia that has justified Russia’s attempted genocide of that nation and it’s illegal annexation of the Crimea - it’s also true of Islamic Radical Jihadist terror groups that they want Israel to take a flying jump into the sea - but thats just what they are - albeit State sponsored terrorists, they are paramilitary terror groups that will not defeat the might of Israel/US military forces.

Governmental geo-politics has moved on from the time where, IMO, it would be even moderately likely that the Countries of Syria, Lebanon or Iran (ie the ‘Axis of Resistance where Hezbollah and Hamas operate) would want to get into a war with the US backed State of Israel. Syria has her own internal problems and is devastated from the Syrian civil war and earthquake, Lebanon is still economically devastated from previous conflict - Egypt, the Gulf States, eg Bahrain, Quatar, Saudi Arabia etc all have security, social, trade and petro-economic reasons for wanting to remain on good terms with the West and either already have or are working to ’normalise’ relations with Israel too.

The only issue, In terms of an existential threat to Israel is Iran …even then that’s unlikely but we would be looking at a conflict confrontation on the scale of the Gulf War in 1991 and 2003 Iraq War with similar devastating consequences (actually probably worse) that both Iran and the Israel/US and Western allies would want to avoid and as would the major Arab influence in the region, Jordan and Saudi Arabia - so Israel can do far more than ‘containing‘ 4.5 million Palestinians in conditions ‘all in the name of security’ that repeatedly fail to meet even the basic requirements of civil freedoms and human rights and which create severe, economic, social and humanitarian hardship - she can once and for all, withdraw from that tiny strip of land of Gaza thats a quarter of the size of London and at least concede that to the Palestinians as an Independent State.

Fair points.

So, given the unlikelihood of the neighbours entering an all out war, do you consider it reasonable that Israel responds to events such as the latest attack with such ferocity?

Someone will eventually need to resist the temptation to go a-smiting, and start the discussions that will lead to peace. Neither side seems remotely close to this yet, though.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

The UN created some of this mess and subsequently washed their hands of it. It’s about time they got themselves involved in trying to sort out the humanitarian issues here.

Israel

Fair points.

So, given the unlikelihood of he neighbours entering an all out war, do you consider it reasonable that Israel responds to events such as the latest attack with such ferocity?

Someone will eventually need to resist the temptation to go a-smiting, and start the discussions that will lead to peace. Neither side seems remotely close to this yet, though.

They always do. Those who attack Israel's citizens do so with their eyes wide open. They know exactly what the response will be. And it's none of that turn the other cheek bollocks

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

...

@Steve Foster is so myopic in his views he will fail to read the article.

 

[beorhthelm]

i read the Israeli President said the Hamas attacks are responsibility of all in Gaza. follows the same collective responsibility for Israelis and the actions of the IDF in coming days and weeks.