[News] Middle East conflict

[carlzeiss]

Two wrongs do not make a right. Please bear in mind:

1) Posting things that are false or cannot be verified could lead to the SITE being sued although I'm sure Bozza would do his utmost to ensure it was you instead in this instance @carlzeiss . Post one more bit of disinformation and you'll have a long holiday from NSC.

2) However, that's no reason to take petty grudges from the Bear Pit @WATFORD zero . This is a serious thread, it doesn't need personal trolling. One more of that and you'll lose access to this thread.

A yellow each. Sort yourselves out.

Fair enough , taken on board and not looking for a fight which I am sure to loose anyway but if you think that a post could result in the site being sued then can the post just be deleted by someone with site privileges in the same way that newspapers remove potentially libelous comments on their online publications ? Understand that all posts can't be monitored but I am sure that you have read mine that you believe to be problematic .

 

[Bakero]

Fair enough , taken on board and not looking for a fight which I am sure to loose anyway but if you think that a post could result in the site being sued then can the post just be deleted by someone with site privileges in the same way that newspapers remove potentially libelous comments on their online publications ? Understand that all posts can't be monitored but I am sure that you have read mine that you believe to be problematic .

Take a bit of personal responsibility. You made a claim that you've failed to provide any source for. I see you've made a quip about defaming Hamas, which you know full well isn't the issue. Spreading disinformation has repercussions beyond the confines of the thread.

 

[Zeberdi]

Extract from Interview with John Mearsheimer an International Relations Scholar at Chicago University.

Covers the influence of the Israel Lobby in the US, how it operates and how it doesnt necessarily have positive outcomes for Israel in the long term.

Also discussion on the conflation of anti-zionism and anti-Semitisim (relevant to some of what happened on this thread).

Definitely relevant- his comments on the weaponisation of ‘anti-semitism’ to silence criticism against Israel/anti-zionism was particularly pertinent to how we view the media, UK policy and pro-Palestine support in the UK.

It is also disturbing how this ideology is finding its way into legislation:

INTRODUCTION OF MANDATORY DEATH PENALTY proposed for ‘Attempting’ to Kill an Israeli for political purposes:

It may have been missed by many but the Kessnet (Israeli Parliament) on Monday approved a second reading of draft Private Members Bill allowing for the execution of Palestinian political prisoners where “terrorist activity” has caused the death of an Israeli citizen (. The Bill requires 3 more readings going through Parliament before it can be enacted:

Terrorist activity” is defined by the bill as “a deliberate attempt to murder civilians in order to achieve political, national, religious or ideological objectives.”

Under the legislation, anyone who “intentionally or out of indifference causes the death of an Israeli citizen when the act is carried out from a racist motive or hate to a certain public… and with the purpose of harming the State of Israel and the rebirth of the Jewish people in its homeland” shall face execution, with no chance of prison time.

Such a widely worded piece of legislation would in theory include:
a/ kids throwing stones at IDF soldiers where it was argued they wanted the soldiers dead
b/ political detainee or any other Palestinian who’s anti-zionist behaviour has resulted in the death of an Israeli whether it was intentional or not
c/ any Palestinian who was aware of a terrorist activity being planned but failed to intervene to stop it or to inform the IDF.

Such a widely worded piece of legislation makes it very hard to defend such a charge of terrorism, “a term whose definition in Israel is so broad and encompassing” when the onus of the burden of proof would in effect be on Palestinians living in Israel to prove they are not terrorists in an apartheid system that implicitly assumes they are. NB. This legislation only applies to the Penal Law of Israel so only effects Israeli citizens- Palestinians living under Occupation in the OPT are subject to the death penalty under military law. While the law would apply to all Israeli citizens. in practice It would not work the other way round since under Israeli law, a Jewish person would be extremely unlikely to be considered a terrorist)

The Palestinian Authority said that the bill is “cruel, barbaric, and inhumane,” describing it as “rooted in Jewish supremacy.” Its passage will lead to Palestinians “arbitrarily and ceremonially being put on death row…”

While there is a global trend of abolition as liberal democracy continues to spreads around the world, Israel is moving in the opposite direction.

https://gazettengr.com/israeli-lawmakers-push-bill-to-enact-death-penalty-law-for-terrorists/
https://worldcoalition.org/2023/05/22/how-likely-is-the-return-of-the-death-penalty-in-israel/

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/1/5/israels-new-death-penalty-bill-targets-palestinians

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/...es-death-penalty-bill-targeting-palestinians/

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-rele...tential-reinstatement-death-penalty-terrorism

 

[nicko31]

Definitely relevant- his comments on the weaponisation of ‘anti-semitism’ to silence criticism against Israel/anti-zionism was particularly pertinent to how we view the media, UK policy and pro-Palestine support in the UK.

It is also disturbing how this ideology is finding its way into legislation:

INTRODUCTION OF MANDATORY DEATH PENALTY proposed for ‘Attempting’ to Kill an Israeli for political purposes:

It may have been missed by many but the Kessnet (Israeli Parliament) on Monday approved a second reading of draft Private Members Bill allowing for the execution of Palestinian political prisoners where “terrorist activity” has caused the death of an Israeli citizen (. The Bill requires 3 more readings going through Parliament before it can be enacted:

Terrorist activity” is defined by the bill as “a deliberate attempt to murder civilians in order to achieve political, national, religious or ideological objectives.”

Under the legislation, anyone who “intentionally or out of indifference causes the death of an Israeli citizen when the act is carried out from a racist motive or hate to a certain public… and with the purpose of harming the State of Israel and the rebirth of the Jewish people in its homeland” shall face execution, with no chance of prison time.

Such a widely worded piece of legislation would in theory include:
a/ kids throwing stones at IDF soldiers where it was argued they wanted the soldiers dead
b/ political detainee or any other Palestinian who’s anti-zionist behaviour has resulted in the death of an Israeli whether it was intentional or not
c/ any Palestinian who was aware of a terrorist activity being planned but failed to intervene to stop it or to inform the IDF.

Such a widely worded piece of legislation makes it very hard to defend such a charge of terrorism, “a term whose definition in Israel is so broad and encompassing” when the onus of the burden of proof would in effect be on Palestinians living in Israel to prove they are not terrorists in an apartheid system that implicitly assumes they are. NB. This legislation only applies to the Penal Law of Israel so only effects Israeli citizens- Palestinians living under Occupation in the OPT are subject to the death penalty under military law. While the law would apply to all Israeli citizens. in practice It would not work the other way round since under Israeli law, a Jewish person would be extremely unlikely to be considered a terrorist)

The Palestinian Authority said that the bill is “cruel, barbaric, and inhumane,” describing it as “rooted in Jewish supremacy.” Its passage will lead to Palestinians “arbitrarily and ceremonially being put on death row…”

While there is a global trend of abolition as liberal democracy continues to spreads around the world, Israel is moving in the opposite direction.

https://gazettengr.com/israeli-lawmakers-push-bill-to-enact-death-penalty-law-for-terrorists/
https://worldcoalition.org/2023/05/22/how-likely-is-the-return-of-the-death-penalty-in-israel/

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/1/5/israels-new-death-penalty-bill-targets-palestinians

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/...es-death-penalty-bill-targeting-palestinians/

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-rele...tential-reinstatement-death-penalty-terrorism

So this law will only apply for actions toward Israeli's. What about Israeli actions toward non-Israelis?

 

[Zeberdi]

So this law will only apply for actions toward Israeli's. What about Israeli actions toward non-Israelis?

I’m not sure whether that was a rhetorical question or not

- but no, the death sentence introduced by the Bill is the for killing of Israelis in terror related murder/manslaughter/ and for failure to prevent it or report anyone planning it - not for the killing of non-Israelis.


Jewish citizens in Israel are also subject to Israel Penal Law but is extremely unlikely a Jewish person would be charged with terrorism in the event that he/she murders/kills a Palestinian (or even a Jewish) citizen, so will avoid the death sentence this Bill introduces.

We are talking large numbers of Palestinians who could be effected - Prior to 7/10 there around 5,200 Palestinians in the Israel prison system, including women and children including 100s of people in administrative detention, with no right to a trial. Post 7/10, that number has increased exponentially with 1,500 Palestinian Israeli citizens being taken into Israeli civil detention for ‘security purposes’ in recent days, let alone those that have been imprisoned in military prisons or killed in the West Bank and in those Gaza since 7/10.

Just one more point - post-1967 in Occupation, the Israeli military created Military Order (101 ) “which is still in use in the occupied West Bank, [which] outlaws the participation and organisation of protests, printing and distributing political material, waving flags and other political symbols, and any activity that demonstrates sympathy for an organisation deemed illegal under military orders.”

Subsequently another Order: “Military Order (378), was issued by the Israeli government. This established military courts, and basically outlawed all forms of Palestinian resistance to the Israeli occupation as “terrorism” - that includes everything listed in Military Order (101) (above)

So you see, it is very easy to be charged with terrorism in Israel or the Occupied Territories or detained without trial.

Why are so many Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails?

One in five Palestinians spends time in Israel jails. Hamas says it wants to exchange captured Israelis for them.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[borat]

Meanwhile in the US a candidate is offered $20 million by an AIPAC lobbyist in order to become a challenger to Rashida Talib (Palestinian parents). Very...democratic

 

[brighton bluenose]

I’m not sure whether that was a rhetorical question or not

- but no, the death sentence introduced by the Bill is the for killing of Israelis in terror related murder/manslaughter/ and for failure to prevent it or report anyone planning it - not for the killing of non-Israelis.


Jewish citizens in Israel are also subject to Israel Penal Law but is extremely unlikely a Jewish person would be to be charged with terrorism in the event that he/she murders/kills a Palestinian (or even a Jewish) citizen, so will avoid the death sentence this Bill introduces.

We are talking large numbers of Palestinians who could be effected - Prior to 7/10 there around 5,200 Palestinians in the Israel prison system, including women and children including 100s of people in administrative detention, with no right to a trial. Post 7/10, that number has increased exponentially with 1,500 Palestinian Israeli citizens being taken into Israeli civil detention for ‘security purposes’ in recent days, let alone those that have been imprisoned in military prisons or killed in the West Bank and in those Gaza since 7/10.

Just one more point - post-1967 in Occupation, the Israeli military created Military Order (101 ) “which is still in use in the occupied West Bank, [which] outlaws the participation and organisation of protests, printing and distributing political material, waving flags and other political symbols, and any activity that demonstrates sympathy for an organisation deemed illegal under military orders.”

Subsequently another Order: “Military Order (378), was issued by the Israeli government. This established military courts, and basically outlawed all forms of Palestinian resistance to the Israeli occupation as “terrorism” - that includes everything listed in Military Order (101) (above)

So you see, it is very easy to be charged with terrorism in Israel or the Occupied Territories or detained without trial.

Why are so many Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails?

One in five Palestinians spends time in Israel jails. Hamas says it wants to exchange captured Israelis for them.

www.aljazeera.com

Wow! If this doesn't amplify just how inherently racist both Israel and Zionism itself is then nothing will.......when will 'the West' stop kowtowing to Israeli fascism?!

 

[Zeberdi]

Temporary ceasefire comes into effect and first hostage is released (1) and IDF are preparing to receive hostages later today but Israel warning that ‘the war isn’t over’. Since the ‘ceasefire started, 2 Palestinians have been shot dead and several injured for moving North instead of South contrary to what they have been ‘told’ by the IDF (2) - Meanwhile, the main hospital in Southern Gaza at Khan Younis, is filling up with patients, mostly women and children that they can’t treat (3) Jordan is showing a build up of troops on the Israeli border (4) and is refusing to remove a field hospital they set up in the Gaza Strip on Monday (5)


“The shooting came hours after the Israeli military warned hundreds of thousands of displaced Palestinians who sought refuge in southern Gaza not to attempt to return to their homes in the northern half of the territory, the focus of Israel’s ground offensive. The military had dropped leaflets on southern Gaza saying that returning to northern Gaza is prohibited and dangerous.

Despite this, since a four-day truce went into effect this morning, hundreds of Palestinians were seen trying to head to northern Gaza. The military said it responded with riot dispersal measures to attempts to move north. Witnesses asserted that troops opened fire in some cases.”

”Sofian Abu Amer, who had fled Gaza City, said he decided to risk heading north to check on his home…We don’t have enough clothes, food and drinks,” he said. ”The situation is disastrous. It’s better for a person to die.”

The ‘ceasefire‘ is clearly very fragile and Israel is preventing people moving towards the North as they are planning to resume operations in 4 days time - (if the ‘truce’ lasts that long).



(1) https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...efire-begins-but-idf-says-war-is-not-over-yet

(2) https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-november-24-2023/

(3) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...usted-doctors-forced-to-leave-children-to-die

(4) https://www.usnews.com/news/world/a...fs-up-army-presence-along-borders-with-israel

(5) https://www.thenationalnews.com/men...dered-field-hospital-to-be-removed-from-gaza/

 

[chip]

Wow! If this doesn't amplify just how inherently racist both Israel and Zionism itself is then nothing will.......when will 'the West' stop kowtowing to Israeli fascism?!

Wow, that's rather strongly worded and doesn't show much understanding of Zionism. I suspect the reasons the west "tolerates" Israel is that the alternatives are going to be worse and many western countries behave in the same way. If Israel is fascist then I'm not sure what words best describe Palestine. But does this sort of language help? When will the west stop kowtowing to the many other inherently racist and fascist states, even in that region?

The conflicts in Sudan seems to have similar properties to the Israel-Hamas conflict, no-one seems to think the west should sort that out. Why is that?

 

[Zeberdi]

The conflicts in Sudan seems to have similar properties to the Israel-Hamas conflict, no-one seems to think the west should sort that out. Why is that?

Actually, the amount of influence the West has on internal warring generals in Sudan is limited but they are very much concerned. In 1993, the U.S. designated Sudan as a state sponsor of terrorism for supporting international terrorist groups including hosting al Qaeda founder Osama bin Laden and other militants so Sudan is always on the radar for a security risk to the West. The U.S. removed Sudan from its state sponsors of terrorism list though in 2020 after Khartoum agreed to forge ties with Israel - not sure what happened to that.

I have never heard the war in Sudan compared to Israel-Palestine tbh - The overthrow of Al Bashir and subsequent civil war has more in line with Iraq IMO and the chaos that followed the downfall of Saddam Hussein or Egypt and the downfall of Mubarak - Israel has never been a dictatorship and the Palestinians live under occupation, they are not Israeli nationals fighting for political power in Israel, they are fighting for an independent state. Obviously the US is a major player here, Israel is a strategic ally of the West in a very important part of the world in a way Sudan is not and also has it’s roots in post-war Europe.

(I personally don’t laud the West’s interference in the politics of Africa or the ME so much as a tool for peace - we have a habit of supporting dictatorships when it suits us and insurrection when it doesn’t, all for our own vested interests.)

 

[chip]

Actually, the amount of influence the West has on internal warring generals in Sudan is limited but they are very much concerned. In 1993, the U.S. designated Sudan as a state sponsor of terrorism for supporting international terrorist groups including hosting al Qaeda founder Osama bin Laden and other militants so Sudan is always on the radar for a security risk to the West. The U.S. removed Sudan from its state sponsors of terrorism list though in 2020 after Khartoum agreed to forge ties with Israel - not sure what happened to that.

I have never heard the war in Sudan compared to Israel-Palestine tbh - The overthrow of Al Bashir and subsequent civil war has more in line with Iraq IMO and the chaos that followed the downfall of Saddam Hussein or Egypt and the downfall of Mubarak - Israel has never been a dictatorship and the Palestinians live under occupation, they are not Israeli nationals fighting for political power in Israel, they are fighting for an independent state. Obviously the US is a major player here, Israel is a strategic ally of the West in a very important part of the world in a way Sudan is not and also has it’s roots in post-war Europe.

(I personally don’t laud the West’s interference in the politics of Africa or the ME so much as a tool for peace - we have a habit of supporting dictatorships when it suits us and insurrection when it doesn’t, all for our own vested interests.)

I realise that may have not been the best example, almost too many to chose from. Maybe, the west's response to Saudi-Yemen but that wasn't really the point I was trying to make and I probably wasn't clear. I shouldn't have put that sentence in a new paragraph. It was rather that there are plenty of other conflicts in and around that region but this particular one probably has a better outcome for the west if its only real ally in that area is supported. The other regimes don't really share the same values. We may not like the methods but prefer the outcome.

 

[Zeberdi]

Thousands march through London against anti-semitism today in the largest march since 1936

Thousands march against antisemitism in London

Organisers say the event is the first of its kind since the Israel-Gaza war broke out.

www.bbc.co.uk

It was overwhelmingly peaceful but several far right protestors (including Tommy Robinson ) were arrested

Tommy Robinson has been arrested at the antisemitism protest in central London

The Met said in advance he was "not welcome" at the march, with the force warning that any offences "whether from within the protest or from any groups trying to challenge or interfere with the march" would be dealt with.

news.sky.com

A British Jewish anti Occupation group, Na’amoud, refused to attend in protest at Israel’s Occupation - instead releasing a statement as to why they didn’t attend:

Na'amod sur X : ❝Our statement on the march against antisemitism❞

Na'amod sur X : ❝Our statement on the march against…

seenthis.net

Who we are - Na'amod

We are a movement of Jews in the UK working to end our community’s support for apartheid and occupation, and to mobilise it in the struggle for dignity, freedom and democracy for all Palestinians and Israelis.

naamod.org.uk

 

[sparkie]

81 hostages released so far. Keep them coming.

 

[Bakero]

Spanish prime minister says he doubts Israel is respecting international law

Pedro Sánchez condemns Hamas terror attacks but urges Israel to rethink operations in Gaza

www.theguardian.com

I'm glad to see Sanchez sticking to his guns. The remarks from Israel about Spanish MPs aligning themselves with Isis-style terrorism are just ridiculous..

 

[nicko31]

Situation still getting worse in Gaza with Israel pushing hard in southern Gaza. Prepare for a lot more death and suffering.

I had sympathy for Israel at the start of this, but feel they are behaving like a terrorist state...

 

[Zeberdi]

The health ministry in Hamas-run Gaza says ‘70% of the 15,899 Palestinians killed by Israeli attacks since 7 October have been women and children’.

 

[nicko31]

The health ministry in Hamas-run Gaza says ‘70% of the 15,899 Palestinians killed by Israeli attacks since 7 October have been women and children’.

Brave man, he has lost 100 of his colleagues

 

[aolstudios]

The health ministry in Hamas-run Gaza says ‘70% of the 15,899 Palestinians killed by Israeli attacks since 7 October have been women and children’.

No bias there then. 2 impeccable sources.
*Screaming sarcastic emoji*

 

[Westdene Seagull]

No bias there then. 2 impeccable sources.
*Screaming sarcastic emoji*

Are you suggesting that the UN are wrong and that thousands of women and children haven't been killed by Israel ?

 

[Zeberdi]

No bias there then. 2 impeccable sources.
*Screaming sarcastic emoji*

The quote from the Hamas Health Authority (the only administrative health authority other than the UN in Gaza) - is of course biased but it does not mean the number of deaths are being falsified necessarily - that is why the quote is in inverted commas but you may be interested in how the deaths in Gaza are counted

How the dead are counted in Gaza

The BBC has been looking in detail at how the casualty figures are totalled.

www.bbc.co.uk

I have posted umpteen posts on this thread with links to a broad cross section of sources so it is a bit disingenuous to imply I am biased tbh - The X post is from the Chief of Communication for the United Nations Children’s Fund

James Elder - ABC News

www.abc.net.au

If you can find any updated numbers from the IDF, please post them - all I could find were an amended figure for those killed in the attack on 7/11.