[News] Middle East conflict

[beorhthelm]

The world and Israel need to recognise there is no longer any room in our modern world for an Israel that subscribes to an extremist Religious Zionism and a Theocracy that alienates over 65% of its population any more than radical Islamic fundamentalism is welcome in Palestine - Israel must give a proper home to a homeless people as she herself was once homeless.

No one on this thread has spoken about it but it is already de facto what we have and would be a solution I would totally support - Everyone is stuck on a two state solution because they have read about it here or heard it on the MSM but a one state solution is they way forward in any new peace process imo - Yeah, it will might never happen but would be ‘better’ and worth a go - and might be the only chance of lasting peace.

well thats the problem, both sides and their sponsor states wont accept the basic premise they need to live alongsie each other. any solution depends on that. it'll take UN action and some form of pressure to impose a solution, but no one is willing to push that. if more in Europe/US overtly supported and pushed Israel to grow up, i think there might be something from the Arab side. i've noticed that, contrary to expected fears, Arab states have not brought impostions against the west to force our hand.

 

[Zeberdi]

They know that, and are making sure there is not a possibility of that by forcing the issue, they know the other Arab nations will become involved and America will come to the rescue.

I’m not sure I understand the point you are making here and what it had to do with my one state suggestion?

Not going to happen.

Perhaps instead of just dismissing me with with an easy negative push back, explain what you think are the main stumbling blocks - apart from Netanyahu’s right wing government which is on the verge of collapse?

Not going to happen, they do not even see them as humans.

Who are you talking about? Jews per se? Just the Religious Zionist elements of Netanyahu’s far right Government?

They think they are the chosen people, everyone else is subhuman, the land belongs to them, and a fictious character will return there for them, they want rid of the Palestinians so god can return.

‘They’ meaning myself included? I think Palestinians are ‘sub-human’? Or Do you just mean ‘All Jews’ in Israel? Or just the 32% in Isreal that are Religious Zionist or other subscribe to other forms if Ultra-Orthodoxy? Or perhaps you mean ‘All Jews’ in the world? Your anti-religious personal agenda is blinding you to the fact only a minority of Jews in Israel are ultra-religious (I posted the ethno-religious breakdown a few days ago) and your belittling characterisation of the Judaistic faith as waiting for a ‘fictitious character’ to return, for those that do subscribe to it, even moderately would be considered offensive to them.

You know it wont, I fully expect Iran/Syria to get involved shortly or a pre-emptive strike by Israel or the US on Iran or Syria.

I certainly don’t know it won’t, I said it was probably unlikely because there are also a string of arguments for saying a one state solution wouldn’t work (and no peace settlement will win favour anyway in the immediate future) - but for a long term one-solution it would indeed be most practical and a ‘better Israel’ imo - especially given the monumental failure of a two state proposal to acquire a lasting peace.

As for what happens next in this war, in terms of escalation, I have already alluded to numerous times on this thread but this is separate from a new peace Process and the vision of a ‘better Israel’ that I was articulating above ...

As I have also mentioned previously several times, that the idea of a one state solution has been gaining traction amongst progressive thinkers and politicians for some time. In fact, Gideon Levy (who you gave a to above ) agrees that a one state solution might be the way forward:



Perhaps do some reading before jumping in and being so readily dismissive at what could be the best chance for peaceful resolution of this conflict since 1948 - I am not alone in putting forward this view - it has been gaining traction since 2009 when the possibility of a two state solution to end the conflict was looking increasingly bleak - feel feel to come up with a constructive argument why you don’t think it would work by all means though (and preferably not in the form of subjective anti-religious rhetoric though - !) …I’m open to sensible debate either way …

You may find this article a helpful start in understanding the debate around this issue

https://carnegieendowment.org/2018/09/18/two-states-or-one-reappraising-israeli-palestinian-impasse-pub-77269

As Avraham Burg, a once-prominent Israeli supporter of the two-state solution who later favoured one-state wrote:, “A quarter of a century on from the Oslo Accords , the two-state solution lies in tatters. There is no peace process. There is very little hope left. And yet somehow, we must still find a way for Israelis and Palestinians to live side-by-side, with equal rights within a single international border. It is time for a progressive one-state solution.”

 

[Insel affe]

Perhaps instead of just dismissing me with with an easy negative push back, explain what you think are the main stumbling blocks - apart from Netanyahu’s right wing government which is on the verge of collapse?

That is the main issue, it certainly does not look or acting like a government on the verge of collapse, genocide yes, collapse I cannot see it.
I feat there are more in favour of this mass murder than against it in Israel and backers abroad.
Until Netanyahu is gone there will be no moving forward, you have alluded to the fact the Israeli government is basically a dictatorship at the moment with Netanyahu doing as he pleases not worrying about those that cast doubt on his agendas and policies, he does not care, he has a plan now and won't stop. I notice they are now bombing south Gaza that is supposed to be a safe zone, it is sickening. I know you have your beliefs and I respect them, I don't believe in any so called god, never mind yours or theirs, it is just senseless murder by both parties.
As humans we should have moved on by now from this need for a higher presence to blame peoples insecurities and bigoted, racist views which is all this is.

 

[Zeberdi]

That is the main issue, it certainly does not look or acting like a government on the verge of collapse, genocide yes, collapse I cannot see it.

Netanyhu’s support has collapsed since Oct 7 that is widely recognised

I feat there are more in favour of this mass murder than against it in Israel and backers abroad.

Please support that assertion with sources and reliable opinion polls because it is a pretty serious charge to launch at a whole population of a Country (that is 20% Arab btw and 45% secular Jew)

Until Netanyahu is gone there will be no moving forward, you have alluded to the fact the Israeli government is basically a dictatorship at the moment with Netanyahu doing as he pleases not worrying about those that cast doubt on his agendas and policies, he does not care, he has a plan now and won't stop

Yes, and you are just repeating back to me what I have saying since 7 October but I do think there is a good chance he will be ousted by a vote of no confidence as I also said earlier.

. I notice they are now bombing south Gaza that is supposed to be a safe zone, it is sickening. I know you have your beliefs and I respect them, I

Well again, you are absolutely wrong about me - As I have said again and again, I am a secular Jew that means I do not subscribe or follow in Judaism (ie the Jewish faith) so please stop trying to cast me as being either one side or the other in this debate and implying because I am Jewish I do not see that what is happening in Gaza is fcuking sickening - my beliefs are humanitarian so stop trying to use my ethnic identity to create an artificial higher moral ground for yourself that I do not also stand on.

I support human rights, civil freedoms, religious and cultural tolerance, and the importance of avoiding stereotypical assumptions about cultures and faiths …

I don't believe in any so called god, never mind yours or theirs,

Well that’s entirely the choice of the individual but just be aware that is is your belief ie that you don’t believe in God, that is creating bias and inherent stereotyping in your arguments, not any supposed religious belief of mine.

As humans we should have moved on by now from this need for a higher presence to blame peoples insecurities and bigoted, racist views which is all this is.

As humans we need to respect other people’s choices to follow what ever religion they like without belittling them, mocking them at every opportunity that presents itself without asserting one’s own bigoted racist views on them. The majority of those subscribing to each of the Monotheistic faiths are doing so in a moderate and non-extremist way. I do not have to be a religious person to love and respect humanity and the capacity of every single human being to love. People should also deal with their bitterness and pain in life rather than blaming it all on a God they don’t believe in too - that’s just as unhealthy as people using religion as an avoidance strategy to deal with MH issues.

Btw you attributed these words below to yourself in your previous post but not putting them quote marks - it was me that said them above:

The world and Israel need to recognise there is no longer any room in our modern world for an Israel that subscribes to an extremist Religious Zionism and a Theocracy that alienates over 65% of its population any more than radical Islamic fundamentalism is welcome in Palestine - Israel must give a proper home to a homeless people as she herself was once homeless.

 

[Insel affe]

Netanyhu’s support has collapsed since Oct 7 that is widely recognised

Please support that assertion with sources and reliable opinion polls because it is a pretty serious charge to launch at a whole population of a Country (that is 20% Arab btw and 45% secular Jew)

Yes, and you are just repeating back to me what I have saying since 7 October but I do think there is a good chance he will be ousted by a vote of no confidence as I also said earlier.


Well again, you are absolutely wrong about me - As I have said again and again, I am a secular Jew that means I do not subscribe or follow in Judaism (ie the Jewish faith) so please stop trying to cast me as being either one side or the other in this debate and implying because I am Jewish I do not see that what is happening in Gaza is fcuking sickening - my beliefs are humanitarian so stop trying to use my ethnic identity to create an artificial higher moral ground for yourself that I do not also stand on.

I support human rights, civil freedoms, religious and cultural tolerance, and the importance of avoiding stereotypical assumptions about cultures and faiths …

Well that’s entirely the choice of the individual but just be aware that is is your belief ie that you don’t believe in God, that is creating bias and inherent stereotyping in your arguments, not any supposed religious belief of mine.

As humans we need to respect other people’s choices to follow what ever religion they like without belittling them, mocking them at every opportunity that presents itself without asserting one’s own bigoted racist views on them. The majority of those subscribing to each of the Monotheistic faiths are doing so in moderate and non-extremist way. I do not have to be a religious person to love and respect humanity and the capacity of every single human being to love. People should also deal with their bitterness and pain in life rather than blaming it all on a God they don’t believe in too - that’s just as unhealthy as people using religion as an avoidance strategy to deal with MH issues.

Btw you attributed these words below to yourself in your previous post but not putting them quote marks - it was me that said them above:

The world and Israel need to recognise there is no longer any room in our modern world for an Israel that subscribes to an extremist Religious Zionism and a Theocracy that alienates over 65% of its population any more than radical Islamic fundamentalism is welcome in Palestine - Israel must give a proper home to a homeless people as she herself was once homeless.

ok, if you say so.

 

[Zeberdi]

ok, if you say so.

Not really - please don’t make it look like I am trying to stiffle your argument- I said I was open to it but I’m just asking you to back up your opinions with links to reliable sources and dial down the anti-religious rhetoric towards Jews especially - and asking you please, with all due respect to stop making presumptions about what I think or ‘believe ’ - and using my ethnic identity as grounds for associating me with supporting the atrocities in Gaza by constructing sentences such as this:

I notice they are now bombing south Gaza that is supposed to be a safe zone, it is sickening. I know you have your beliefs and I respect them, I don't believe in any so called god, never mind yours or theirs, it is just senseless murder by both parties.

what I might or might not believe certainly isn’t believing that bombing South Gaza is anything less sickening than you do or the war isn’t just ‘senseless murder by both parties’ because it is.

Edit - and just in case you were worried about causing offence by criticising the bombing by Israel, as I have said before, criticism of Netanyahu’s atrocities in Gaza is not being anti-semitic, its being human IMO.

 

[peterward]

A really good twitter/X thread from an Israeli father, who survived with his daughters in one of the Oct 7th massacre villages.

Thoughtful, considered and balanced imho.

 

[Bakero]

Yes, I mentioned it several times early on but it was never picked up on or spoken about by other posters (afaia) as I said, no one has spoken about it - I will try and find my earlier posts - dont have time now.

Except in the post I linked to from 9/10 when it was mentioned. As I said, the UN official who advocated it was flamed for anti-semitism. Even the Guardian said his support for a one-state solution was a "call for the effective end to the state of Israel", and quoted someone who claimed it was akin to “wiping Israel off the map”. You can see why in the media people avoid the topic and I guess that is reflected on here to some extent.

 

[Zeberdi]

Except in the post I linked to from 9/10 when it was mentioned. As I said, the UN official who advocated it was flamed for anti-semitism. Even the Guardian said his support for a one-state solution was a "call for the effective end to the state of Israel", and quoted someone who claimed it was akin to “wiping Israel off the map”. You can see why in the media people avoid the topic and I guess that is reflected on here to some extent.

Yes, thank you - and I do see why the media avoid it - absolutely it is very contentious but then so is 75 years of bloodshed, appalling suffering and now this horrendous culmination of conflict on a scale we’ve not seen before in Palestine and Israel since 1967.

I don’t buy the ‘wiping of Israel off the map’ and ‘end of the State of Isreal’ rhetoric as being the reason people haven’t discussed it on here though (don’t know about MSM ) - that’s all some folk have been talking about since day one here - not the politics of the Great Replacement Theory where Jews are afraid of Israel losing her Jewish character as a Jewish State (which in fact has its own roots in anti-semitism) but the barbarism of the ideology of extermination as enshrined in the Hamas Charter and the politics of genocide as being apparently perpetrated by Netanyahu. Both streams of thought lead to the same conclusion - one nation being wiped off the map by the other. Religious Zionists dont want to live next to Arab Palestinians and Hamas don’t want to live next to Jews so a two state solution will unlikely work. ‘Short of ethnic cleansing or mass transfer’, we are at an impasse and Netanyahu knows it as does Hamas. ‘Yet there can be no reconciliation unless both peoples, two communities of suffering, resolve that their existence is a secular fact, and that it has to be dealt with as such’.

We are not afraid to talk about this stuff! And who on here will accuse anyone of anti-semitism for suggesting an alternative peace plan? I certainly wouldn’t because this isn’t about wiping Israel off the face of the map or ‘diluting her Jewish character’ it’s about a finding secular answer to a secular problem - one of territory and power - and to stop letting the entire trajectory of social, economic and political development of two nations of people be dictated to by a minority of extremists on both sides.

I would just suggest people to listen to the very articulate Gideon Levy video I posted above and read the article I posted which wasn’t editorial opinion but an academic and balanced debate on the pros and cons because this topic will come - it is gaining political popularity in the younger generations.

As I said, one of the reasons why I think some form of one-state solution would be worth at least pursuing as part of a peace process is because we do already de facto have a one state reality - the State of Israel ruling over the entire Palestine territory - withdrawing the settlement towns and businesses would be almost insurmountable - and the two-state solution has not worked - so lets try something else more progressive. - actually what @Wardy's twin was suggesting the other day - a radical new approach is needed. Although it obviously won’t leave the drawing board until Netanyahu and his Religious Zionist extremist cronies are voted out of power.

- in one of my earlier posts on this thread, I was asked what the alternative to a two state solution might be and I said one that starts in the interim development by affording full civil and human rights to the Palestinian people. A bit more what that could look like under a form of 2 nation, One State solution is here:

Frontiers | Editorial: Israel/Palestine: the one-state reality implications and dynamics

For several decades, observers of and commentators on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict performed what may be called the one-state, two-state tango. Repeatedl...

www.frontiersin.org

“The one-state reality means that more non-citizen Palestinian Arabs live under effective Israeli rule than Palestinian Arabs who are Israeli citizens. That calls for a re-examination of how law functions in a state founded by settler colonialists and considers whether citizenship for all inhabitants of such a state is a human right.”


This is a good article by a Palestinian journalist if you can access it - I don know if its behind a paywall for you (I subscribe)

https://www.nytimes.com/1999/01/10/magazine/the-one-state-solution.html

I am not saying a one-state solution would work or even get onto the table as a real proposition for many months/even years to come - but I can’t see much else has been working in my entire lifetime, least of all armed conflicts that causes suffering on all sides … There will always be extremists that will interfere in ANY peace plan - that can’t be the excuse for not pursuing one and a one state solution is at least worth being part of the mainstream debate.

 

[sydney]

They know that, and are making sure there is not a possibility of that by forcing the issue, they know the other Arab nations will become involved and America will come to the rescue.

Not going to happen.

Not going to happen, they do not even see them as humans.

The world and Israel need to recognise there is no longer any room in our modern world for an Israel that subscribes to an extremist Religious Zionism and a Theocracy that alienates over 65% of its population any more than radical Islamic fundamentalism is welcome in Palestine - Israel must give a proper home to a homeless people as she herself was once homeless.
They think they are the chosen people, everyone else is subhuman, the land belongs to them, and a fictious character will return there for them, they want rid of the Palestinians so god can return.

You know it wont, I fully expect Iran/Syria to get involved shortly or a pre-emptive strike by Israel or the US on Iran or Syria.

The end of days my friend the end of days, and god will not pick a side or come to the rescue.

bloody hell , that is a grim outlook isn't it ...?? but entirely feasible if the carnage continues , it does my head in that in this day and age , i.e the 21st century that there is still an overwhelming desire by some to impose themselves onto others and make their existence miserable , it's a despicable trait and there appears to be an upswell currently.

 

[sydney]

Which is why for me the 2 state solution is not only increasingly unlikely out of the remaining lands of Palestine, post 1967 because of settlement expansion but because Israel’s security nightmares will never be resolved in the region even with an independent Palestinian State - wherever that ends up.

A ‘better’ Israel for me would be something along the lines of a newly formed ’State of Palestine & Israel’ that fully integrates the Palestinian People, giving them all everywhere a right to return, full Israeli citizenship, full civil and human rights and social and economic opportunity afforded to Jews - both by way of reparation and of reconciliation of the past.

The world and Israel need to recognise there is no longer any room
in our modern world for an Israel that subscribes to an extremist Religious Zionism and a Theocracy that alienates over 65% of its population any more than radical Islamic fundamentalism is welcome in Palestine - Israel must give a proper home to a homeless people as she herself was once homeless.

No one on this thread has spoken about it but it is already de facto what we have and would be a solution I would totally support - Everyone is stuck on a two state solution because they have read about it here or heard it on the MSM but a one state solution is they way forward in any new peace process imo - Yeah, it will might never happen but would be ‘better’ and worth a go - and might be the only chance of lasting peace.

if you look at the chronological maps of how settlers have encroached onto Palestinian land since the 40's it's absolutely astounding that they have got away with it and would appear to justify the anger of the Arab world against the Israeli state and its obnoxious big brother America.....press augmentation at its pinnacle.

 

[Zeberdi]

if you look at the chronological maps of how settlers have encroached onto Palestinian land since the 40's it's absolutely astounding that they have got away with it and would appear to justify the anger of the Arab world against the Israeli state and its obnoxious big brother America.....press augmentation at its pinnacle.

Do you want to post a link to the maps you are looking at- because if it is the series of the 4 green chronological maps you are referring to, these are highly misleading and are basically propaganda maps - they have been dismissed as such by every independent authority..as discussed previously on this thread by a number of posters.

There’s no justification for terrorism.

 

[sydney]

Do you want to post a link to the maps you are looking at- because if it is the series of the 4 green chronological maps you are referring to, these are highly misleading and are basically propaganda maps - they have been dismissed as such by every independent authority..as discussed previously on this thread by a number of posters.

There’s no justification for terrorism.

i'm not saying there is at all but even if the maps are wrong the gradual take over of the area by settlers would not be tolerated anywhere else on the globe in this day and age .....i work with Palestinians , one of them is my employer actually.

 

[Zeberdi]

bloody hell , that is a grim outlook isn't it ...?? but entirely feasible if the carnage continues ,

As we have been saying at the outset- the risk of escalation has been well documented on MSM, on here and on both sides of the divide.

See my earlier post re. Netanyahu creating a subtext for America bombing Iran, observations of Hezbollah and Israel exchanges on the Syrian border since 7 October, Houthi rockets being fired from Yemen and exchanges between the IDF and Hezbollah in Lebanon- we are already seeing an escalation in fighting and have done for days.

It’s a little hyperbolic to talk about the ‘end of days‘ but if extremist fundamental religious groups think that, we could probably dismiss most of them as mentally unstable if it weren’t for the fact they have influence in the corridors of power- which Is why extremists on both sides need to be stopped/reigned in.

Neither America nor Russia, nor Iran want a full blown war ( as they have openly stated many times) - for all the reasons discussed previously - not least American oil interests in the Middle East.

Doesn’t meant to say the Gaza war isnt already spreading into a regional conflict but between so far, proxy paramilitary groups and American and Israel forces limiting attacks to Hamas and Hezbollah

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Interesting and moving article from the BBC today - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079

So at a push, you could argue the IDF are not targeting civilians because they warn them and tell them to get out ( I don't agree with that opinion at all ) BUT it does show the IDF have no issue destroying civilian property and leaving them homeless and desperate. Once again, good way to breed the next generation of Hamas fighter/terrorist. How stupid are the IDF and Israeli government ? Look forward to a number of Israeli's being put on the arrest list for war crimes like Putin - silly me, the West supports these war crimes but not the ones carried out in Ukraine by Russia.

 

[Zeberdi]

…even if the maps are wrong the gradual take over of the area by settlers would not be tolerated anywhere else on the globe in this day and age .....

Absolutely- and btw I wasn’t saying the Settlement Expansion has not happened it has (and is illegal too under international law) - that is why there has been a continuation and escalation of armed resistance against a policy of de-homing Palestinians, appropriating their businesses and building new settlements in what looks like piecemeal Annexation of the West Bank.

However , In 2005, Israel withdrew military occupation and all of the Jewish settlements from Gaza (about 7.5000 settlers ) under Ariel Sharon’s Disengagement Plan - (See link below). This isn’t reflected in the maps - although Isreal remained in overall control as the illegal Occupier of the OPT. The 1967 Occupied area of the West Bank was also divided in 1995 under the Oslo Accords, into 3 areas A, B, and C: A being put back under Palestinian control under the Palestinian Authority, B under joint control and C under Israeli control but again, Israel remains an illegal Occupier.
(see map below)

It is in the West Bank settlements have been expanding and rapidly so under Netanyahu- (see map below). while the propaganda maps paint an overly bias picture, it is absolutely the case that settlement expansion in the West Bank has triggered much of the violence in this ongoing territorial dispute and it’s also true that utterly thousands of Palestinians were displaced by expulsion or fled from land that became Israel in 1948, again nearly half a million in 1967, and ongoing internal displacement under settlement expansion on the Occupied Palestinian Territories. It is also the case, Netanyhu is overtly pursuing a policy of annexing further areas in the West Bank to Israel (see his recent Trump Plan proposals for example) and as some observers believe, will take the opportunity to move Israeli settlers back into Gaza once this war is over into land evacuated by Palestinian civilians. If he tries that abominable policy pursuit, we will imo, see a massive escalation of armed resistance throughout the Middle East ….

https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/Maps/Pages/Israels%20Disengagement%20Plan-%202005.aspx#

 

[tedebear]

Absolutely- and btw I wasn’t saying the Settlement Expansion has not happened it has (and is illegal too under international law) - that is why there has been a continuation and escalation of armed resistance against a policy of de-homing Palestinians, appropriating their businesses and building new settlements in what looks like piecemeal Annexation of the West Bank.

This is a critical issue in all of this. Hamas suggesting settlers are "fair game" and radical / zionist Isrealis being born and raised to believe it is their land, and it is ok to kill for it in return....below is an interesting/worrying news piece from 4 years ago! The Hamas attacks of a month ago, and Netanyahu's continual illegal settlement expansion, and protection given to the radical Isrealis will have only added fuel to this existing fire, rather than resolve any of it:

 

[Zeberdi]

Interesting and moving article from the BBC today - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079

… look forward to a number of Israeli's being put on the arrest list for war crimes like Putin - silly me, the West supports these war crimes but not the ones carried out in Ukraine by Russia.

What a great piece of journalism - I was just listening again to the Gideon Levy interview I posted above - Israeli does not share values with the West and is not a liberal democracy - Israel has however, been enabled by the West for many years so Israel thinks ‘she can get away with it’. Israel is still the ‘darling of the West’ says Levy and he noted that Russia, within a few weeks of invading Ukraine was met with widespread sanctions, export embargoes and asset stripping of European based oligarchs - Israel continues to act with impunity - she ignores the UN while EU and the UN make hollow condemnations that everyone knows will be ignored. I said last week, she should be suspended from the UN and hit with sanctions but that suggestion fell on deaf ears here as it would at the UN.

 

[The Fits]

@Zeberdi Thank you so much for your input on this thread. It's incredibly detailed and informative.

 

[sparkie]

Interesting and moving article from the BBC today - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079

So at a push, you could argue the IDF are not targeting civilians because they warn them and tell them to get out ( I don't agree with that opinion at all ) BUT it does show the IDF have no issue destroying civilian property and leaving them homeless and desperate. Once again, good way to breed the next generation of Hamas fighter/terrorist. How stupid are the IDF and Israeli government ? Look forward to a number of Israeli's being put on the arrest list for war crimes like Putin - silly me, the West supports these war crimes but not the ones carried out in Ukraine by Russia.

The Butcher of Moscow is on the arrest list solely for the forced deportation of children to Russia. None of his other war crimes have an arrest warrant sadly.

I suppose there is a parallel with the taking of child hostages by Hamas but inconsistently there is no arrest warrant for that yet. Maybe it is in the pipeline