[News] Middle East conflict

[Kinky Gerbil]

Manchester Police removing posters of hostages held by Hamas . Who is giving them orders for this ?

They have said sorry for this, the Met have not yet.

 

[Krafty]

I don't think they do, well most of them anyway, and I've thought about this a lot over the last week as the attacks from a previous NSCer went on and on.

I think most people will agree on all of this...

- The Israel population deserve to live in peace, free of the threat of rampaging terrorists and rocket attacks
- More widely, Jewish people everywhere deserve to live a life without suffering antisemitism
- Palestinians deserve to live in peace, with freedom and opportunity.
- Hamas need to be removed for the benefit of all concerned

I think the difference of opinion primarily comes down to one point...

- How far should Israel be able to go in order to eradicate Hamas?

Those with strong connections to Israel largely seem to believe that the loss of human life, whilst regrettable, is necessary in order to neutralise Hamas. Short-term pain for long-term gain if you will.

Those who don't have the same ties to Israel look at the huge loss of life happening and largely think "This can't be right".

Well said, I cannot disagree

We all want peace for the innocent Israelis and Palestinians, but what is the best solution to achieve this? Is there even a possible solution?

 

[Zeberdi]

Well said, I cannot disagree

We all want peace for the innocent Israelis and Palestinians, but what is the best solution to achieve this? Is there even a possible solution?

Surely not with the unsubstantiated suggestion though that most a people with a strong connection to Israel thinks killing 50 children and adults for one terrorist is all right!?

Im sorry but I find that offensive as someone with those strong ties - I honestly thought this thread had moved on from this kind of stereotyping but clearly not - and it’s upsetting that this is apparently the majority opinion on here

 

[Krafty]

Surely not with the unsubstantiated suggestion though that most a people with a strong connection to Israel thinks killing 50 children and adults for one terrorist is all right!?

Im sorry but I find that offensive as someone with those strong ties - I honestly thought this thread had moved on from this kind of stereotyping but clearly not - and it’s upsetting that this is apparently the majority opinion on here

Have you been offended by what I said?

 

[borat]

Surely not with the unsubstantiated suggestion though that most a people with a strong connection to Israel thinks killing 50 children and adults for one terrorist is all right!?

Im sorry but I find that offensive as someone with those strong ties - I honestly thought this thread had moved on from this kind of stereotyping but clearly not - and it’s upsetting that this is apparently the majority opinion on here

My experience is that there are varied views amongst the Jewish community. Unfortunately the media and UK/US politics are less tolerant of those that differ from unequivocal support of Israel and I see them branded as the "wrong type of Jew", not a real Jew" etc etc

Again only my experience and what I read and see online - Right wing orientated Jews tend to support Israel much more heavily whilst left wing Jews are more sympathetic to the Palestinian occupation and will protest etc.

They have no obligation to to do so just because they are Jewish but they lend their voice and support as they do with other human rights causes. There is a long history of leftist Jewish solidarity with global causes that don't affect them directly.

 

[raymondo]

Christian Zionism

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Christian Zionism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Christian Zionism: the interfaith movement hiding in plain sight | Aeon Essays

It’s one of the most successful, and in some ways unlikely, interfaith movements in the modern world

aeon.co

Israel’s Current Crisis Exposes Christian Zionism’s Contradictory Ideals

Evangelical supporters of the country, who have long taken sides in the country’s politics, are neutral about the recent political unrest

newlinesmag.com

I've now had a chance to read sections of those articles. Although I was aware of the sympathetic view of many Christians toward Zionism (hope I'm using the right words here...) I was totally unaware of this key central tenet relating to a supposed second coming.
Very interesting, and thanks for the heads-up .

 

[Zeberdi]

Have you been offended by what I said?

No - sorry - it was just you were agreeing to a post that I also largely agreed with but contained a comment that I did find offensive as a Jewish person with strong ties to Israel - it was being suggested that someone like myself ( as part of those people that have strong ties to Israel) supported Netanyahu’s policy position that 50 innocent Palestinians children and adults is worth killing for 1 terrorist - I find that abhorrent along with everything else that innocent Gazans are being subjected to in Gaza) and so would all the members of my family, I can’t speak for Jews I don’t know them all pets so don’t know what they believe and I won’t because the diversity of Jewish/Israeli opinion is huge. I had posted an explanation why I found that so upsetting just before you posted but felt it had been ignored - it’s deeply personal I guess.

 

[WATFORD zero]

No - sorry - it was just you were agreeing to a post that I also largely agreed with but contained a comment that I did find offensive as a Jewish person with strong ties to Israel - it was being suggested that someone like myself ( as part of those people that have strong ties to Israel) supported Netanyahu’s policy position that 50 innocent Palestinians children and adults is worth killing for 1 terrorist - I find that abhorrent along with everything else that innocent Gazans are being subjected to in Gaza) and so would all the members of my family, I can’t speak for Jews I don’t know them all pets so don’t know what they believe and I won’t because the diversity of Jewish/Israeli opinion is huge. I had posted an explanation why I found that so upsetting just before you posted but felt it had been ignored - it’s deeply personal I guess.

I think that most people left on this thread (Thanks Mods ) are very much from the moderate area of the discussion. We will still have disagreements, (sometimes vehemently in my case) but I think we are all on the same side and looking to achieve the same thing - a long lasting peace

 

[Krafty]

No - sorry - it was just you were agreeing to a post that I also largely agreed with but contained a comment that I did find offensive as a Jewish person with strong ties to Israel - it was being suggested that someone like myself ( as part of those people that have strong ties to Israel) supported Netanyahu’s policy position that 50 innocent Palestinians children and adults is worth killing for 1 terrorist - I find that abhorrent along with everything else that innocent Gazans are being subjected to in Gaza) and so would all the members of my family, I can’t speak for Jews I don’t know them all pets so don’t know what they believe and I won’t because the diversity of Jewish/Israeli opinion is huge. I had posted an explanation why I found that so upsetting just before you posted but felt it had been ignored - it’s deeply personal I guess.

I'm sorry that you have been offended. I had agreed with the majority of @Bozza's post but, mistakenly, I did not read that sentence thoroughly.
I do not "support" and never have "supported" Netanyahu's policy position that fifty innocent Palestinians is worth killing for one terrorist, nor do I believe that all those who have strong connections with Israel feel this way.
I understand your comment completely, this was an accident on my behalf and I should have addressed this previously. I'm sorry.

 

[Zeberdi]

I think that most people left on this thread (Thanks Mods ) are very much from the moderate area of the discussion. We will still have disagreements, but I think we are all looking to achieve the same thing - a long lasting peace

That wasn’t my point - I have issues of it being implied that I and my family (and any other Jewish person/family members supports Netanyahu‘s disgraceful policy in Gaza because we have strong connections and ties to Israel. That is what was said:

“Those with strong connections to Israel largely seem to believe that the loss of human life, whilst regrettable, is necessary in order to neutralise Hamas. Short-term pain for long-term gain if you will”

while

“Those who don't have the same ties to Israel look at the huge loss of life happening and largely think "This can't be right".

You can NOT say that of millions of Jews around the world who have very strong connections to the State of Israel as I do - it’s offensive to suggest that by virtue of those ties we believe that the loss of life of millions of innocent Gazans are acceptable while everyone else ( the righteous presumably) can see that it’s not right what is happening to the Gazan people - its offensive - period.

 

[Zeberdi]

I do not "support" and never have "supported" Netanyahu's policy position that fifty innocent Palestinians is worth killing for one terrorist, nor do I believe that all those who have strong connections with Israel feel this way.
I understand your comment completely, this was an accident on my behalf and I should have addressed this previously, I'm sorry.

Sorry - I was not suggesting you did - the implicit suggestion in bozza’s post that you quoted was that I did because of my strong ties to Israel

 

[Krafty]

Sorry - I was not suggesting you did - the implicit suggestion in bozza’s post that you quoted was that I did because of my strong ties to Israel

No problem, I did find your post (#2,624) about the comment, an informative read - like all the rest

 

[carlzeiss]

Albion football star delivers toys to sheltering children amid Gaza war

An Albion football star has swapped scoring goals for delivering toys to children sheltering from the ongoing conflict in Gaza.

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[nicko31]

I would hope it was quite obvious that I have severe concerns about Israel's current strategy for two broad reasons...

- They are killing untold thousands of innocent people.
- When Iarael's campaign is over, there'll be people remaining who have seen utter devastation in Gaza, and that is sure to be a breeding ground for more anti-Israel radicalism.

I did initially use the word "neutralise" instead of "eradicate". Regardless, I don't see Israel's approach as one likely to lead to long-term peace, and it's causing a lot of short-term misery.

The Israel government keep repeating their desire to eliminate Hamas, its what the bulk of the Israeli public want to hear.

This is impossible. Even if achieved the extreme desperation, suffering and resentment left behind will create a new Hamas, this is blindingly obvious.

Doesn't feel like there is any real plan at all.

And what is going to pay to rebuild Gaza?

 

[Zeberdi]

The Israel government keep repeating their desire to eliminate Hamas, its what the bulk of the Israeli public want to hear.

Yes, of course the Israeli public -( and I’m assuming you just mean the 76% Jewish population rather than the 20% Arab population ?) want Hamas eradicated and were largely supportive of a ground invasion initially - but I think the bulk of the Israel public are no less wise than you or I and are able to see the ‘blinding obvious’ - that anyone else with a modicum of sense can see - that you can not eliminate an ideology and it’s dangerous to try and in Gaza in particular - it will be virtually impossible - a ground invasion where urban warfare is complicated by miles of subterranean hideouts and a maze of tunnels will soon start piling up body bags on the Israeli side - when that happens - Netanyahu’s popularity will drop even lower.

Most Israelis have lost trust in Netanyahu’s ability to protect Israel and are not as far right as the current government would like to go - Bibi’s goals are open ended and extremist Zionist in nature - (and he has a
greater long term aspirations than ’neutralising’ Hamas, or a peaceful 2 state solution) - Israeli public support for him has all but collapsed and there are growing concerns in Israel that he is leading Israel into a devastating conflict for Israelis when what they want is to bring hostages home and Hamas defeated.


“Seventy-six percent of the Israeli public is dissatisfied with the government’s performance in the aftermath of Hamas’s attack,

And a ‘growing number also disapprove of prioritizing a military campaign in Gaza over the hostages’ safe return.’

Pressure mounts on Netanyahu to prioritize Israeli hostages

Israeli public opinion appears to be shifting to favor liberating those still held captive, even if it requires a prisoner swap or a pause in the country’s military aggression.

www.nbcnews.com

Netanyahu’s political future looks shakier in midst of Israel-Hamas war | Benjamin Netanyahu | The Guardian

Already declining support for prime minister falls further as calls grow for his resignation and public anger rises

amp.theguardian.com

 

[Bakero]

This is a powerful interview

 

[SeagullinExile]

That's a very decent summary of my position too.

Over the last three weeks or so, I've learned that I was previously woefully uninformed on the whole situation. I certainly won't pretend to be highly knowledgable now, but I know more than I did. And, like you, I've been left stunned at the way the Israeli forces and settlers seem able to kill at will without fear of retribution. Living where we do, I can't imagine a scenario where people could head over to a nearby village, kill a few people, return home and that is the end of the story. No arrests, no investigation and no consequences for the killers.

But because I can feel empathy towards the plight of the many Palestinians who just wish to be able to live in peace without fear, that doesn't mean I can't feel exactly the same for the people of Israel and, more broadly, Jewish people worldwide, because I absolutely do. It also doesn't mean I support Hamas in any way. I have nothing but contempt for Hamas and the atrocities they are responsible for. The whole region would be better if they didn't exist, although I have no idea how that can be achieved.

Yet, both NSC and me directly has come under attack for being antisemitic even though nothing could be further from the truth. We've permanently banned those who have expressed antisemitism via posts on here.

It really does seem to be the case that those who have unwavering support for Israel don't seem capable of reading and understanding those who may question their government's actions. It absolutely does not mean the author of those questions is antisemitic and wishes any ills upon Israel's people nor the wider Jewish population.

It’s good to see that more people are recognizing the pain Palestinians have been feeling for generations. I’ve supported their cause for two decades now. Hopefully, the more people begin to understand, the closer we’ll all be to a two state solution. This is the ONLY way peace will ever prevail in the region.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

It’s good to see that more people are recognizing the pain Palestinians have been feeling for generations. I’ve supported their cause for two decades now. Hopefully, the more people begin to understand, the closer we’ll all be to a two state solution. This is the ONLY way peace will ever prevail in the region.

Israel's idea of a two state solution currently appears to consist of funnelling off the Palestinian population of Gaza into the Sinai Peninsula - irrespective of any views Egypt may have on the matter

 

[Zeberdi]

Israel's idea of a two state solution currently appears to consist of funnelling off the Palestinian population of Gaza into the Sinai Peninsula - irrespective of any views Egypt may have on the matter

That’s not quite what’s happening tbh - Egypt with Qatar and Israel, Hamas and the US have agreed to a limited evacuation of some of the most critically sick and injured - I don’t know what else they are supposed to do at the moment with these poor people - do you? - most of them are critically injured and because of the blockade , the hospitals have all but run out of fuel and supplies, or are completely unsafe/inaccessible because they are in the midst of the battle zone - they also don’t have the specialist care some of these patients need - the only way these injured and sick Palestinians will get lifesaving medical treatment is to get them out of Gaza into Egypt via ambulance and get them to hospitals in North Sinai who are properly equipped to treat them. Horrendous for doctors having to choose who gets to go and who doesn’t because the numbers being allowed through are strictly limited - for some, staying will almost certainly be a death sentence..

Most of the people going through are foreign nationals - Israel’s main ‘evacuation’ plan is to enforce an evacuation of over a million people from North to South Gaza - many of whom won‘t leave for fear of being shelled while on the road or are simply too weak or sick to go, with medical staff insisting on staying with their patients. Or even more tragically- they feel there is literally no where safe for them to go to in the whole of Gaza - and after the past few weeks, that is hard to argue against.

Israel-Hamas war: Gaza doctor says he has dozens more patients who need to cross into Egypt

Dr Youssuf Al Akkad, from the Gaza European Hospital, had the difficult job of selecting 18 of his most seriously ill patients to make the crossing. He said his facility was in danger of running out of fuel supplies in a matter of days.

news.sky.com

Palestinians flee northern Gaza after Israel orders 1 million to evacuate as ground attack looms

Palestinians began a mass exodus Friday from northern Gaza after Israel’s military told some 1 million people to evacuate toward the southern part of the besieged territory.

apnews.com

 

[dejavuatbtn]

Israel's idea of a two state solution currently appears to consist of funnelling off the Palestinian population of Gaza into the Sinai Peninsula - irrespective of any views Egypt may have on the matter

Looks to me like they are driving them all into a corner and bombing the shit out of the whole population. Seems to be a policy of bombing as many people as possible in the hope of hitting a few genuine targets. Any support for peace within the Palestinian population must be diminishing by the hour. That’s a level of revenge that I can’t understand from a country that from it’s history should know better. They have lost the moral ground but it seems whatever they do gets a thumbs up from the U.K. and U.S. Governments and their oppositions. WTF ?
The Israeli government should hang its head in shame.