MEP Nigel farage

[highflyer]

That's right, we either stay and have to accept free movement, or we leave. We can't cherry pick what we want. I knew this years ago just by looking at how they have dealt with other countries. This country has never wanted to be a full member of the EU anyway, otherwise we would have accepted the Euro, we have always really had one foot outside.

We just have to accept it, we can't win against the EU, which is why I voted to Leave.

If that had been the argument that the Leave camp had made then I don't think they would have won though. There was a coherent message (lie) throughout the campaign that we can cherry pick. That somehow by saying 'Britain is Great and we need to be confident in ourselves' would magically make us more powerful than we actually are and the rest of the EU would have to concede to whatever demands we made.

If they had said 'yes, there are huge economic risks, we won't be able to control immigration from the EU so long as we want to retain our trading status. Oh and by the way, we haven't actually got any experienced trade negotiators anymore, which puts us at a massive disadvantage when we have to renegotiate all those trade deals. But don't you think it is worth it to be free from the shackles of the 'elite' (albeit even more in the pocket of Rupert Murdoch)'

I am wondering what the outcome would have been?

 

[daveinprague]

EU Trade commissioner reported as saying NO trade deals until AFTER Brexit on News this morning.Not before, not during, but after.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36678222

 

[ManOfSussex]

EU Trade commissioner reported as saying NO trade deals until AFTER Brexit on News this morning.Not before, not during, but after.

I this mentioned on here last night, but then people are interpreting her words in different ways and saying this will not be the case though. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36678222

Somebody says one thing, somebody says something else, somebody says this will happen, somebody says it wont...........................This is never ending.

 

[daveinprague]

I think the word is cluster****

 

[Deleted member 22389]

If that had been the argument that the Leave camp had made then I don't think they would have won though. There was a coherent message (lie) throughout the campaign that we can cherry pick. That somehow by saying 'Britain is Great and we need to be confident in ourselves' would magically make us more powerful than we actually are and the rest of the EU would have to concede to whatever demands we made.

If they had said 'yes, there are huge economic risks, we won't be able to control immigration from the EU so long as we want to retain our trading status. Oh and by the way, we haven't actually got any experienced trade negotiators anymore, which puts us at a massive disadvantage when we have to renegotiate all those trade deals. But don't you think it is worth it to be free from the shackles of the 'elite' (albeit even more in the pocket of Rupert Murdoch)'

I am wondering what the outcome would have been?

The answer would have been Remain. I knew from the start we couldn't cherry pick, just got to look at what Cameron came back with.
I want us to Leave, but I think the government will do the opposite in the end. The longer it goes on the more jittery everyone will get.

 

[Jim D]

The EU Trade Commissioner has no more authority to decide how Brexit will happen than Cameron has. If you think that Germany and France will put up with years of 'tit for tat' tariff wars when trying to sell into the UK then you need to think again. Pragmatism will soon take over.

 

[highflyer]

The answer would have been Remain. I knew from the start we couldn't cherry pick, just got to look at what Cameron came back with.
I want us to Leave, but I think the government will do the opposite in the end. The longer it goes on the more jittery everyone will get.

Fair enough. there are arguments both sides.
I wanted to remain, despite being deeply cynical about how the EU works, how far it can be reformed and how it treated Greece. I have colleagues in Norway fighting to keep Norway out because they don't want to be dragged to the right by the EU.

But I thought the risks of leaving were far too high compared to any obvious reward and I also have a strong belief that any positive future for the world requires countries to cooperate more and compete less. Treating nation states as though they are competing companies is a dangerous nonsense.

What made me angry was the utter lack of integrity and honesty - to some extent on both sides, but mainly led by the Leave campaign and exemplifed by Dominic 'facts are for pussies' Cummings in his evidence to the Treasury select committeee:
Utterly pathetic.
I believe that Dominic Cummings is leading Gove's campaign for leadership now btw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJjShkGCa4c

 

[highflyer]

Pragmatism will require us to accept freedom of movement. 'Pragmatism' of another form also requires other EU countries to ensure we get a bad deal, to restrict the rise of further nationalist movements.

 

[beorhthelm]

I this mentioned on here last night, but then people are interpreting her words in different ways and saying this will not be the case though. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36678222

i dont think its a case of interpreting her words, but reading the text of Article 50 itself. her interpretation is interesting, and one that no Remainer ever made in the campaign, nor any other representitive of EU or any pundit. anyone paying attention would have spotted by now that European leaders and officials have a habit of expressing their views as if they are policy or law, only to find the institutions row back later on. (in fairness to the EU Commission, it regularly emits document and reports that outright reject views of officials)

 

[beorhthelm]

Pragmatism will require us to accept freedom of movement. 'Pragmatism' of another form also requires other EU countries to ensure we get a bad deal, to restrict the rise of further nationalist movements.

pragmatism would require EU to look hard at the wording and application of the existing law and see if all they need to do is tweek it a little to settle our complaint. i dont think we should make everything about freemovement, we should also require bi-lateral trade agreements with non EU naitons and opt out from any further directives and legislation not related to the original single market areas (pre-Maastrict).

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Fair enough. there are arguments both sides.
I wanted to remain, despite being deeply cynical about how the EU works, how far it can be reformed and how it treated Greece. I have colleagues in Norway fighting to keep Norway out because they don't want to be dragged to the right by the EU.

But I thought the risks of leaving were far too high compared to any obvious reward and I also have a strong belief that any positive future for the world requires countries to cooperate more and compete less. Treating nation states as though they are competing companies is a dangerous nonsense.

What made me angry was the utter lack of integrity and honesty - to some extent on both sides, but mainly led by the Leave campaign and exemplifed by Dominic 'facts are for pussies' Cummings in his evidence to the Treasury select committeee:
Utterly pathetic.
I believe that Dominic Cummings is leading Gove's campaign for leadership now btw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJjShkGCa4c

Someone needs to grab those at the top of the EU today, give them a bloody good shake and make them understand that in order for everyone to cooperate succesfully in their project then there needs to be a wide scope for reform inside it. They cannot continue treating countries in the way they do, and need to start thinking about the people outside of their bubble.

If we do infact trigger Article 50, the worst thing they could do to us is start messing us around.

 

[Diego Napier]

We are the 5th largest economy in the world and 2nd largest economy in the EU, we can thrive and open our vision beyond what Brussels and their politically concocted European member states determine, we can use our size to negotiate within the EU whilst unilaterally forging new trading relationships without firstly asking for some preferences from another 27 nations which I suspect drag us into less favourable agreements.

I admire your optimism however the factors that enabled us be the 5th largest economy in the world no longer exist. Going forward it will be increasingly important to belong to one of the major trading blocks.

 

[highflyer]

Lats time I looked we had dropped to 6th largest economy. Has that changed again? I can't keep up.

 

[beorhthelm]

I admire your optimism however the factors that enabled us be the 5th largest economy in the world no longer exist.

what, all the factors are gone? being a large population in with post-industrial economy a highly educated population, with market forces to drive innovation dont exist anymore? i think we should have been told.

 

[carlzeiss]

Lats time I looked we had dropped to 6th largest economy. Has that changed again? I can't keep up.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...n-higher-after-rollercoaster-day-for-markets/

FTSE 100 poised for best week since 2011 and bond yields hit record lows on post-Brexit stimulus hopes

 

[Diego Napier]

what, all the factors are gone? being a large population in with post-industrial economy a highly educated population, with market forces to drive innovation dont exist anymore? i think we should have been told.

Those current factors don't distinguish us from any number of countries.

Our economy grew to be the greatest in the world through a foreign policy based on opportunism and aggression. For centuries we waged wars with neighbours, indulged in piracy and looting, invaded foreign lands, killed and subjugated their populations and requisitioned their natural resources (including shipping their most able bodied overseas), enabling the nation to amass huge wealth. As the wealth of the state and individuals grew we also had the advantage of a ready supply of cheap labour at home and abroad, further fuelling the economy and, along with greatest navy and land forces, allowed us to straddle the globe. There was innovation but it was innovation in a world that we dominated with scarce competition from elsewhere.

Those unique historic factors are no longer relevant. We've slipped from being the greatest economy in the world to fifth, that trend will continue, empires come and go. We have no more unique innovation here than anywhere else regardless of market forces. We have a population no more highly educated than dozens of other countries. We do not have the advantage of a cheap labour force. We do not have the advantage of a productive labour force. We do not have the advantage of a wealth of natural resources. We will no longer have the advantage of being part of a powerful trading bloc.

Yes, you should have been told.

 

[Guy Crouchback]

I'm just going to quote my German friend again...

The Leave-campaign was full of lies...promises broken now already....but even now you can read people writing in the SUN and similiar rags that not much will change at all...and that it will get only better, now that GB is "freed from the yoke of the EU".
GB right now is led by an abysmal clique of politicians and confused by an equally malicious media...not a good mix.
But it's self made...you can not mock the EU for decades and blame it for all your own shortcomings and failures and then expect your citizens to build up understanding and trust.
The chicken came home to roost...so to speak.

It's only slowly starting to sink in what a huge sham that all was! That even most big Leavers like Boris Johnson never expected to win at all...that there is no real plan to handle the Brexit now at all.

I give them a year to fully grasp the catastrophe they led their country into, totally needlessly at that. A good lesson for the rest of us, democracy needs to be taken seriously, your vote is important...think before you vote!

... he's a great guy, but there's one really annoying thing about him--he's hardly ever wrong.

 

[SK1NT]

2mins of audio... a great explanation of the brexit manipulation

http://www.lbc.co.uk/james-obriens-blistering-take-on-crisis-in-british-politics--133148

and if you want to hear a heart breaking call about a German lady and how things have changed for her since brexit... listen to the audio directly after

(The audio after is Video Sobbing German Woman's Call Stops James O'Brien In His Tracks )

Both Audios well worth a listen.

 

[JCL666]

Fair enough. there are arguments both sides.
I wanted to remain, despite being deeply cynical about how the EU works, how far it can be reformed and how it treated Greece. I have colleagues in Norway fighting to keep Norway out because they don't want to be dragged to the right by the EU.

But I thought the risks of leaving were far too high compared to any obvious reward and I also have a strong belief that any positive future for the world requires countries to cooperate more and compete less. Treating nation states as though they are competing companies is a dangerous nonsense.

What made me angry was the utter lack of integrity and honesty - to some extent on both sides, but mainly led by the Leave campaign and exemplifed by Dominic 'facts are for pussies' Cummings in his evidence to the Treasury select committeee:
Utterly pathetic.
I believe that Dominic Cummings is leading Gove's campaign for leadership now btw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJjShkGCa4c

Dominic Cummings makes Alistair Campbell look saintly.

 

[spring hall convert]

but you have to build the infrastructure to cope with mass migration and by not doing this creates huge problems in many many ways.

Agreed. What was stopping us from doing that pre-Brexit?