Tyrone Biggums
Well-known member
Not really.
Same sex predation is also a thing for women.
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[News] Men! Are we the baddies?
- Thread starter Algernon
- Start date
Not really.
Same sex predation is also a thing for women.
No, we're not, most of us. Sorry to go against the tide.
BadFish
Huge Member
- Oct 19, 2003
- 18,222
Better to split the baddies down the line of sex pests, abusers and rapists on one side and decent people on the other.
Men on one side and women on the other means you mislabel a whole lot of people. As someone said before most men hate other men who treat women badly. So who do we get lumped in with them?
Men on one side and women on the other means you mislabel a whole lot of people. As someone said before most men hate other men who treat women badly. So who do we get lumped in with them?
In spite of the welcome advances in women's rights and greater equality, we still live in a mostly patriarchal society in which men dominate many of the most senior positions in business, law, politics, and religion, and they have therefore used that power to impose particular rules and values which have often benefitted men much more than women, so that male power became self-perpetuating. In some cases, that power and dominance veered into sexual abuse and assault, and reflected a perverse sense of entitlement.
They were also able to define gender roles, which decreed that men were expected to be competitive, macho, physically strong, and their sexual needs insatiable and paramount; the "any hole is a goal"
mentality that some men still have today. This too often crossed the line into sexual abuse and assault, and a refusal to accept that when a woman said "No", she absolutely meant "No".
Women, on the other hand, were often defined as 'naturally' submissive and subservient, their primary role in life being to support or service men, either as wives (including sex-on-demand), or through supportive roles in the work-place - until relatively recently, women were confined either to more junior or supportive roles - clerical, secretarial, receptionists, cashiers - while men dominated the more senior and supposedly 'important' positions (which were also much better paid, thus perpetuating economic inequality between men and women, and reinforcing women's economic dependency on men), or women were mostly located in caring or people-orientated professions, which supposedly reflected their more nurturing nature - nursing, teaching, social work, etc.
Incidentally, not until the early 1990s was rape-in-marriage finally recognised as a crime.
As to sexual promiscuity, there is still a lot of hypocrisy and sexist double standards; a bloke who's a serial shagger or enjoys numerous one-night stands will often be viewed as a 'player', a jack-the-lad, sowing his oats before settling down, a ladies' man, a lucky sod, etc.
Yet a woman who similarly enjoys lots of casual sex will still, in many cases and communities, be labelled a slag, a slut, a slapper, a nympho, etc. Then if she says "No" to unwanted sexual advances, she's liable to be accused of being frigid or a prick-tease. Women are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
Meanwhile, when a woman is raped, she is still often blamed; she "was asking for it" because she was flirting, was drunk, was wearing revealing clothing, led the bloke on, sent out misleading signals which he naturally misread, etc. The (alleged) rapist is often then portrayed as the innocent victim.
So, ultimately, some men are absolute b*stards in their attitude towards women, and their treatment of them. Then the rest of us - who have always tried to treat women as intellectual, social, and sexual equals - get blamed too, and told that we're all as bad as each other, and are the enemy.
Having said all that, I've always been bemused and dismayed that some women seem to be attracted to "bad guys", and dismiss "nice guys" as safe but boring. So those "bad guys" assume that many women want to be treated badly, whereupon toxic masculinity perpetuates itself.
They were also able to define gender roles, which decreed that men were expected to be competitive, macho, physically strong, and their sexual needs insatiable and paramount; the "any hole is a goal"
mentality that some men still have today. This too often crossed the line into sexual abuse and assault, and a refusal to accept that when a woman said "No", she absolutely meant "No". Women, on the other hand, were often defined as 'naturally' submissive and subservient, their primary role in life being to support or service men, either as wives (including sex-on-demand), or through supportive roles in the work-place - until relatively recently, women were confined either to more junior or supportive roles - clerical, secretarial, receptionists, cashiers - while men dominated the more senior and supposedly 'important' positions (which were also much better paid, thus perpetuating economic inequality between men and women, and reinforcing women's economic dependency on men), or women were mostly located in caring or people-orientated professions, which supposedly reflected their more nurturing nature - nursing, teaching, social work, etc.
Incidentally, not until the early 1990s was rape-in-marriage finally recognised as a crime.
As to sexual promiscuity, there is still a lot of hypocrisy and sexist double standards; a bloke who's a serial shagger or enjoys numerous one-night stands will often be viewed as a 'player', a jack-the-lad, sowing his oats before settling down, a ladies' man, a lucky sod, etc.
Yet a woman who similarly enjoys lots of casual sex will still, in many cases and communities, be labelled a slag, a slut, a slapper, a nympho, etc. Then if she says "No" to unwanted sexual advances, she's liable to be accused of being frigid or a prick-tease. Women are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
Meanwhile, when a woman is raped, she is still often blamed; she "was asking for it" because she was flirting, was drunk, was wearing revealing clothing, led the bloke on, sent out misleading signals which he naturally misread, etc. The (alleged) rapist is often then portrayed as the innocent victim.
So, ultimately, some men are absolute b*stards in their attitude towards women, and their treatment of them. Then the rest of us - who have always tried to treat women as intellectual, social, and sexual equals - get blamed too, and told that we're all as bad as each other, and are the enemy.
Having said all that, I've always been bemused and dismayed that some women seem to be attracted to "bad guys", and dismiss "nice guys" as safe but boring. So those "bad guys" assume that many women want to be treated badly, whereupon toxic masculinity perpetuates itself.
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Uh_huh_him
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 12,138
Good post.
I find the bad boy argument resurfacing a lot. I think this is something some women go through in their youth, but most grow out of after having enough bad experiences.
The trope of the "simp" being friend-zoned by the girl falling for the alpha, is based on truth and some of us experienced it in our youth.
However, in my opinion, this is increasingly being used by young men as a way of demeaning women for not being sexually attracted to them.
Justice
Dangerous Idiot
Some women are just as bad as some men sorry to smash the bullshit opinion women are innocent little creatures. One example whilst packing up my tools on a job the lady of the house was literally grabbing at me and trying to kiss me. I was like WTF is happening here and laughed off the advances and swiftly left. Now had this been the other way round can you imagine the fallout the consequences could have been devastating possibly ruined my business for one and had her husband or the police on my case.
You're not smashing any bullshit opinion. If you bother to read the thread, there are plenty who agree that women can behave as badly as any man. It's just that the thread is exploring reasons why shit behaviour is more prominent among men, which it clearly is. After all, 96% of prisoners are male, which is astonishingly high.
I tend to broadly agree that the reason men are "the baddies" is that they are largely in a position to be bad in the first place. Historical positions of power being taken by men mean that society's laws and attitudes have been shaped by men.
The irony of this historical "jobs for the men, women stay at home" trope is that it has given rise to one scenario that kind of proves women can be every bit as bad as men where they have the power: divorce. Women tend to get majority custodial rights of kids. Good luck to any man divorcing a bitter old bitch who decides she's going to make it as difficult as possible for her ex to see his own kids. The number of women who use their kids as weapons is absolutely appalling.
Of course it happens with some men too, but women do get majority custody far more often and thus have more chances to behave like this. Just like men in a wider context, giving rise to "are we the baddies?"
Nobby Cybergoat
Well-known member
- Jul 19, 2021
- 8,628
I always think that nature documentaries are the best way to understand human behaviour here.
In most comparable species, say a troop of monkeys or something, there's clearly defined roles which if you look carefully you could probably see playing out on West St at 3am, The Alpha, who gets there and stays there through violence and threat and takes his reward of sex with whoever he wants, the lower ranked males who need to gain status and so do with sycophancy, the females making calculated decisions on who can best protect their young.
Now you might saying, "hang on Cybergoat, we live in civilised society now we should be above that". Well yes, but the logical part of our brain which is civilising us is fighting against millions of years of evolution. A few beers or a bit of time in a gang or a habit of watching incel youtubers, that can be quickly wiped out.
I don't think it's helpful to class men or women as goodies or baddies. We're all just playing out the roles we've played since the dawn of time, but that's overlayed with an uneasy truce we've all made with our inner monkeys for the benefits of living in a civilised society. But that uneasy truce won't hold if we don't think others will play their part. When climate change breaks down our society, which it will, life will return to being nasty, brutish and short.
In most comparable species, say a troop of monkeys or something, there's clearly defined roles which if you look carefully you could probably see playing out on West St at 3am, The Alpha, who gets there and stays there through violence and threat and takes his reward of sex with whoever he wants, the lower ranked males who need to gain status and so do with sycophancy, the females making calculated decisions on who can best protect their young.
Now you might saying, "hang on Cybergoat, we live in civilised society now we should be above that". Well yes, but the logical part of our brain which is civilising us is fighting against millions of years of evolution. A few beers or a bit of time in a gang or a habit of watching incel youtubers, that can be quickly wiped out.
I don't think it's helpful to class men or women as goodies or baddies. We're all just playing out the roles we've played since the dawn of time, but that's overlayed with an uneasy truce we've all made with our inner monkeys for the benefits of living in a civilised society. But that uneasy truce won't hold if we don't think others will play their part. When climate change breaks down our society, which it will, life will return to being nasty, brutish and short.
Half Time Pies
Well-known member
The amount of male prisoners is an interesting stat on its own but there are definitely factors that explain this other than 'men are bad'. For example studies in the US show that Men are 33% more likely than women to get a custodial sentence and that those custodial sentences are 64% percent longer than they are for women under similar circumstances. In situations where couples have committed crimes together the male is often presumed at least initially to have coerced the female. This societal perception as the female being the victim is also as you rightly point out reflected in the family courts.
Within family environments I think Women can often hold the position of power. I was involved in some group therapy for people affected by dysfunctional family environments as children and was quite surprised to see that a large percentage of people who attended the group sessions had suffered abuse at the hands of narcissistic mothers. When fathers were involved it seemed more likely that physical abuse was involved but the impact on people affected by abuse at the hands of narcissistic and controlling mothers was no less damaging. I think it's more easy to see and prove abuse when it's physical and often taken more seriously when a man is involved.