Mediterranean migrant deaths and CMD.

[Barrel of Fun]

Katie Hopkins has her own solution to the problem .

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/04/18/katie-hopkins-russell-bra_n_7091674.html

I wish people would ignore her. She is a nothing with something to say (controversially) about everything. Ignore her!

 

[BadFish]

yeah, best friends.

Iraq is one thing (well covered) and i'll give you that. but you'll have to explain what the gain is or could be for destablising Libya. and Tunisia, Egypt (remember those). and of course Syria. the grand plan worked out so well for the west hasnt it?

There is plenty out there about this. I guess time will tell the accuracy of it. I am not prepared to dismiss it quite yet.

 

[BadFish]

The West's influence in places such as Libya is massive? I would not have thought so in the slightest.

Who knows the truth of it but there is a fair bit out there about it.

 

[symyjym]

maybe a point... the main point is the people did the uprising first. should we have intervened for Gaddafi? or done absolutly nothing. i actually would go with the latter, but there are plenty that wanted "something" to be done and the obvious and only realisitic option was to assist the uprising or see it put done.

no doubt there is a happy clappy mid point we could have done involving "talks" that would have lasted a generation while a war of attrition between the antagonists continued. and in that state of lawlessness, there would be an increase in immigrants using Libya as a base to head for Europe... its been going on for years btw, just increased. do anyone think Gaddafi policed the shores and coast to the aid of EU or something?

Much as what [MENTION=1313]BadFish[/MENTION] has said in #27, but to add that Blair had secured big military contract deals with Gaddafi just a few years earlier. He looked close to death anyway, and his sons were educated over here so there was some westernisation within his family. These countries can't turn democratic overnight but they can slowly modernise.

In reality we were able to dictate to the dictators Saddam and Gaddafi and we had some form of control. And at least when we were at war with Iraq previously, we always got our prisoners and hostages back.

 

[Hastings gull]

So basically Europe are taking in all these poor people fleeing oppression etc, and some of them are dying and now everyone is wringing their hands and saying that something needs to be done to help these poor unfortunates....then we get pictures and film of the poor unfortunates who have ended up in Calais wanting to come here.

So if Europe agree to take more and more of these poor buggers, should we not put the people in Calais on ferry boats and let them in? I know UKIP will implode but we need to take our share!

I applaud your willingness to help in what is a desperately sad situation, but this alone does not mean that we should take any more. Where you would put them all - I doubt that you would want a hostel full of unskilled young men, with nothing to do all day, next door, as happened to friends of ours near Portsmouth. OK, this is an exaggeration and a one-off, agreed, but "we need to do more" presumably means someone else has to. Were you thinking of taking a couple into your house?

 

[beorhthelm]

In reality we were able to dictate to the dictators Saddam and Gaddafi and we had some form of control.

so they were client states... and so we've harmed our interests? inconsistancy and contradiction abound on these issues.

 

[BadFish]

I applaud your willingness to help in what is a desperately sad situation, but this alone does not mean that we should take any more. Where you would put them all - I doubt that you would want a hostel full of unskilled young men, with nothing to do all day, next door, as happened to friends of ours near Portsmouth. OK, this is an exaggeration and a one-off, agreed, but "we need to do more" presumably means someone else has to. Were you thinking of taking a couple into your house?

I think that to assume they are all unskilled in a little inaccurate and disingenuous as you say. Many asylum seekers are highly skilled but are not allowed to work (here is Auatralia anyway, not sure about the rules in the UK.) The sad truth of this matter is that if we don't do more then 'someone else has to'. If you look at the figures it is world's poorer countries than our that are shouldering the majority of the burden for this problem.

 

[BadFish]

so they were client states... and so we've harmed our interests? inconsistancy and contradiction abound on these issues.

To be fair we are only suggesting that the US have a huge influence in these matters. Not that they are any good at executing their plans or succeeding in their intentions

They seem to leap from one almighty **** up to another.

So you don't think that the US had any links to Gadaffi and Hussein? If you claim they are were not client states then what do you beleive the relationship was (if any)?

 

[beorhthelm]

They seem to leap from one almighty **** up to another.

its almost as if they dont have any plan or objective and just react...

 

[symyjym]

so they were client states... and so we've harmed our interests? inconsistancy and contradiction abound on these issues.

Yep, exactly this. It’s the cutting off your nose to spite your face strategy.

 

[BadFish]

its almost as if they dont have any plan or objective and just react...

So you think that there is no influence from the US at all in the middle east. Move along, nothing to see here?

 

[Eeyore]

The UK do take a fair number but lets not forget that their are millions of people displaced around the world in refugee camps (12 million according to this).

View attachment 64733

Correct.

The overwhelming majority of refugees flee to neighbouring countries. The majority of which are poorly resourced.

The best source of information is NGO's such as Oxfam. I've worked on MSF donor projects before and they are a brilliant source of independent information as well.

 

[Eeyore]

I wish people would ignore her. She is a nothing with something to say (controversially) about everything. Ignore her!

As long as the media keeps courting nobodys like her they will always be with us.

News these days is about entertainment and pantomime.

 

[Hastings gull]

I think that to assume they are all unskilled in a little inaccurate and disingenuous as you say. Many asylum seekers are highly skilled but are not allowed to work (here is Auatralia anyway, not sure about the rules in the UK.) The sad truth of this matter is that if we don't do more then 'someone else has to'. If you look at the figures it is world's poorer countries than our that are shouldering the majority of the burden for this problem.

View attachment 64735

Ok they are not all unskilled, granted, but it is highly likely that most are, isn't it? Afterall, if you were well qualified and presumably well paid, albeit by local standards, you would be far less likely to want to give that up and leave. Surely that is logical. Of course there are highly-skilled people who leave due to the fear of political persecution, but you are surely not telling me that they are in a majority -you do say "many". And they tend to have the cash and nouse not to need leaky boats! to The poorer countries are shouldering the onus, you are right, but of course this is because most refuges take immediate shelter in the closest available country, not necessarily because these countries want to, but to be fair, they do largely take them in. Yes, we do tend to say someone else has to, you are right, and my point was that when a post says we should do more, they don't usually mean themselves and having lots in their own street. The problem is that doing more will just encourage even more to come, as we know - it is a very difficult situation.

 

[BadFish]

Ok they are not all unskilled, granted, but it is highly likely that most are, isn't it? Afterall, if you were well qualified and presumably well paid, albeit by local standards, you would be far less likely to want to give that up and leave. Surely that is logical. Of course there are highly-skilled people who leave due to the fear of political persecution, but you are surely not telling me that they are in a majority -you do say "many". And they tend to have the cash and nouse not to need leaky boats! to The poorer countries are shouldering the onus, you are right, but of course this is because most refuges take immediate shelter in the closest available country, not necessarily because these countries want to, but to be fair, they do largely take them in. Yes, we do tend to say someone else has to, you are right, and my point was that when a post says we should do more, they don't usually mean themselves and having lots in their own street. The problem is that doing more will just encourage even more to come, as we know - it is a very difficult situation.

Not sure of the figures of asylum seekers to the UK but i know that around 95% of people who come to Australia on boats are genuine refugees. The reason for this is that only the rich people from those countries can afford to travel on these rickety leaky boats. The prices charged by people smugglers is incredibly high, most people cannot afford them and end fleeing on foot to neighbouring countries. Many refugees I have spoken to have spent all the money they have on boat fares for one person in the hope that once they get refugee status they will find their families and be able to bring them over on family visas. So actually the further away from the problem you are the more likely you are to get wealthy and well to do refugees.

I agree that it is a difficult situation and one i sadly don't know the answer to. There are many people in Australia who will offer refugees a room to stay in their houses. If i had the room I would certainly do this. Currently i am trying to find the time to offer my services to teach them English to assist them with assimilation. One thing I am certain of (and i am going to get a bit preachy here so i apologise and this is not directed at you) is that we need to start seeing them as people rather than the invading hoards of terrorists or economic migrants that they are often made out to be. The best way to do this I have found is to get involved in helping them and listening to their stories and the problems they are facing. Once people have heard their stories it would take a heart of stone to advocate 'sending them back' as some on this thread have suggested.

Once again i apologise for the preaching and I am not for one moment putting myself forward as some kind of saint on this subject as I could and should do a lot more, but as you say it is a very difficult situation

 

[Thunder Bolt]

There were thousands dying annually trying to cross the Med, and thousands penned up on Pantelleria and Lampedusa, long before Gaddafi fell.

Good link. These refugees trying to cross the Med have already endured crossing the Sahara Desert. It's nothing to do with Gaddafi or unrest in the Middle East, but Ethiopians trying to escape their terrible ordeals.

 

[Dave the OAP]

I just find the utter hypocrisy distasteful in that people say how awful it is that children are dying in boats trying to get to a better life, yet those in Calais are regarded as sponging scum wanting to come here to take our jobs.

To answer Hastings gull, I would have no problem if people moved into our area who are seeking better lives from war and tyranny. In fact in our close, there are already three housing association houses that have these sort of unfortunates living in them and they add to the diversity of the area, not hinder it.

 

[Hastings gull]

I just find the utter hypocrisy distasteful in that people say how awful it is that children are dying in boats trying to get to a better life, yet those in Calais are regarded as sponging scum wanting to come here to take our jobs.
To answer Hastings gull, I would have no problem if people moved into our area who are seeking better lives from war and tyranny. In fact in our close, there are already three housing association houses that have these sort of unfortunates living in them and they add to the diversity of the area, not hinder it.

I am not sure it is that distasteful or in fact hypocritical. You can say how awful it is, which is undoubtedly true, that kids are drowning, and still say that we do not want huge numbers of these people. Because one naturally feels sorry for their desperate plight, does not necessarily mean that you want to tale them in. This might sound heartless, but the fact is that perceived excessive immigration, from wherever it comes, worries most folk in the UK.
On reflection, my question to you was probably unfair, as I was expecting that type of response,but who would then admit their hypocrisy and say -we should do more but please put them away from my house. I am not for one moment suggesting you are being untruthful just that if you are being honest, and I am sure you are, there is always the suspicion that you are not!

 

[BadFish]

I am not sure it is that distasteful or in fact hypocritical. You can say how awful it is, which is undoubtedly true, that kids are drowning, and still say that we do not want huge numbers of these people. Because one naturally feels sorry for their desperate plight, does not necessarily mean that you want to tale them in. This might sound heartless, but the fact is that perceived excessive immigration, from wherever it comes, worries most folk in the UK.
On reflection, my question to you was probably unfair, as I was expecting that type of response,but who would then admit their hypocrisy and say -we should do more but please put them away from my house. I am not for one moment suggesting you are being untruthful just that if you are being honest, and I am sure you are, there is always the suspicion that you are not!

Maybe people actually don't mind having refugees living near them. This may be because refugees are just people like the rest of us. The only difference is that they have been through hell to get where they are.

 

[Dave the OAP]

there is always the suspicion that you are not!

You accusing me of lying?

Blimey, and I thought that you were one of the more reasoned argumentative people, perhaps I was wrong.

Anyway, it's all about opinions.