Massive fire in London - Grenfell Tower in Shepherds Bush

[Pickledegg]

Fire risk assessments for council tower blocks take place every year? If so why wasn't this picked up?

Fire safety certificates were discontinued in 2005. Instead they conduct fire risk assessments, why were Fire safety certificates discontinued in 2005?

Once an FRA is carried out it only needs to be reviewed annually! However, it must be suitable and sufficient meaning that the person completing the FRA has to have the relevant knowledge and experience.

The FRA for this type of building will be carried out in the communal areas only, the flats themselves would not require an inspection.

I have not read through the complete thread so apologies if this has already been mentioned!

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

 

[dazzer6666]

I understand the principle. But, in other areas of life, it's isn't the case that finding a situation that is "unsafe" leads automatically to a decision to close down a facility.

For example ... a railway station platform is "unsafe", if it gets overcrowded. The solution to this problem isn't to close the station. The solution is to supervise access to the station and restrict access if safety limits are exceeded.

Closing the station completely creates other hazards that need mitigation just as much as the original identified problem. I'm not convinced that, on this occasion, the balance of risks was fully taken into account.

To return to the railway example, I recall the King's Cross Underground fire. One of the contributory factors to the death toll was that there was a fault with the fire alarm system. London Underground initially dealt with this finding by deciding that every time a fire alarm fault was found, the station would be closed until the fault was fixed. This was soon realised to be the wrong decision, when it was realised that forcing thousands of people out of the underground system created its own set of hazards, far outweighing the risks that a fatal fire might ensue. Reviewing fire safety doesn't require complete closure of facilities.

Ref the station comparison, as an example Preston Park station is always closed on Brighton Marathon day to prevent overcrowding........

 

[Pickledegg]

Once an inspecting officer deems a building/factory/hotel is unsafe, it is closed down immediately. My son did inspections foe two years.

Whilst in principle this is correct, there is a process to follow and the Fire Brigade are able to issue a number of warnings.

They are:
Alteration notice
Improvement notice
Enforcement notice
Prohibition notice

The latter states that the 'use of the premises may constitute and imminent risk of death or serious injury to the persons using them.'

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

 

[Pickledegg]

This seems to be a decision that is at odds with the standard risk assessment methodology that I was taught. The likelihood of a major fire breaking out tonight is small, surely? Would it not be sufficient to draft in a team of fire wardens to watch for a fire and, should one arise, instigate evacuation procedures?

Totally agree with this.

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

 

[clapham_gull]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...luxury-flats-survivors-disaster-a7803356.html

 

[carlzeiss]

'Hundreds' died in Grenfell Tower fire, says Diane Abbott

The MP for Hackney North and Stoke Newington also blames the disaster on Tory attitudes towards social housing

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ds-labour-shadow-home-secretary-a7806106.html

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Totally agree with this.

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

Again confusion seems to be in charge as BBC news reports yesterday stating that Plymouth council was doing just that,yet another council act differently. That was the highlighted Lord/B post.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Ref the station comparison, as an example Preston Park station is always closed on Brighton Marathon day to prevent overcrowding........

And Falmer Station is always closed when there is a music festival in Stanmer Park, but not when there is a football match at the Amex.

Why? Only one of these events is dealt with by employing trained staff to supervise and deal with the overcrowding.

It's not the overcrowding itself that requires closure. It's how it is dealt with.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Now can someone please try and explain this to me,basically a school although smaller in height is in some ways similar to a tower block in as much as large number of rooms,lots of people,heat source for a fire science labs,workshops etc and maybe like me a few here you went to a secondary school that was built pre Grenfell mine was in E/G (built in the 60,s went in the 70,s) and like many had three storey,s at least three stairwells,central fire alarm and weekly fire drills and i assume that was built to planning regulations of the day ? So how is it possible to build something that is bigger,but with less fire security ten years later ?

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Now can someone please try and explain this to me,basically a school although smaller in height is in some ways similar to a tower block in as much as large number of rooms,lots of people,heat source for a fire science labs,workshops etc and maybe like me a few here you went to a secondary school that was built pre Grenfell mine was in E/G (built in the 60,s went in the 70,s) and like many had three storey,s at least three stairwells,central fire alarm and weekly fire drills and i assume that was built to planning regulations of the day ? So how is it possible to build something that is bigger,but with less fire security ten years later ?

Not just in a single authority either,spread over multiple authorities all over the country....differing suppliers,differing contractors,sub-contractors and councils and so forth-

The conclusion i can draw is this-All cladding burns,however i can only speculate that it's the burn rate that's in question here and also the fitting of the cladding too.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Yet GWF, were not schools built to certain regulations and if so surely someone must have asked the question 'why are we building towers with less fire security than schools'?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Now can someone please try and explain this to me,basically a school although smaller in height is in some ways similar to a tower block in as much as large number of rooms,lots of people,heat source for a fire science labs,workshops etc and maybe like me a few here you went to a secondary school that was built pre Grenfell mine was in E/G (built in the 60,s went in the 70,s) and like many had three storey,s at least three stairwells,central fire alarm and weekly fire drills and i assume that was built to planning regulations of the day ? So how is it possible to build something that is bigger,but with less fire security ten years later ?

How is it possible? Simple. It's a consequence of a genuinely held belief that "too much red tape" was holding back development and that deregulation was required to correct this.

I was once a member of a working party charged by the Blair government to identify opportunities to abolish regulations that no longer served a purpose. Most of the proposals were put forward by civil servants, rather than politicians. The main role of the working party was to identify flaws in the proposals before they were taken forward. Believe me, there was a lot of sloppy thinking flying around.

And don't forget the enthusiasm of businesses for getting rid of restrictions on what they could do. It all culminated, of course, in the campaign for Brexit and "taking back control".

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Ok,Lord/B but just how is three stairwells and a central fire alarm Red Tape ? What are you supposed to do shout 'FIRE' and run like hell ?

 

[Boys 9d]

I don't know what the situation was in Grenfell Tower or is in current "at risk" premises.

I found when I was a Fire Prevention Officer in the 1960s and 70s carrying out inspections that one of the failures of even well planned Fire Protection systems was the use of what we called the "British Standard Wedge" used to seemingly always prop open Self Closing Fire Doors because opening the doors every time "was a nuisance".

Some premises had magnetic catches keeping doors open which released automatically when the Fire Alarm sounded which probably still exist today.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Ok,Lord/B but just how is three stairwells and a central fire alarm Red Tape ? What are you supposed to do shout 'FIRE' and run like hell ?

I agree. The search for ways to "reduce the burden of regulation" was always nothing but a politically motivated fantasy. We are now beginning to realise that it is a dangerous fantasy as well.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I understand the principle. But, in other areas of life, it's isn't the case that finding a situation that is "unsafe" leads automatically to a decision to close down a facility.

For example ... a railway station platform is "unsafe", if it gets overcrowded. The solution to this problem isn't to close the station. The solution is to supervise access to the station and restrict access if safety limits are exceeded.

Closing the station completely creates other hazards that need mitigation just as much as the original identified problem. I'm not convinced that, on this occasion, the balance of risks was fully taken into account.

To return to the railway example, I recall the King's Cross Underground fire. One of the contributory factors to the death toll was that there was a fault with the fire alarm system. London Underground initially dealt with this finding by deciding that every time a fire alarm fault was found, the station would be closed until the fault was fixed. This was soon realised to be the wrong decision, when it was realised that forcing thousands of people out of the underground system created its own set of hazards, far outweighing the risks that a fatal fire might ensue. Reviewing fire safety doesn't require complete closure of facilities.

As I understood the article, it wasn't just the cladding, but the fire doors within the block were of inadequate quality too.
There are going to be a lot of questions from councils to construction companies and building inspectors.

 

[symyjym]

https://youtu.be/upViHb8z4wY

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I'm not sure what planet Camden Council are on if they think they can strip and reclad 5 tower blocks in "3-4 weeks" !

Absolutely no chance.

Have they said that is the target then?

Surely the urgency is just to strip the existing cladding.

Re-cladding can be done later?

 

[Insel affe]

Have they said that is the target then?

Surely the urgency is just to strip the existing cladding.

Re-cladding can be done later?

The wife who works for Camden Council on the regeneration housing team and worked on projects like Agar Grove & Maiden Lane, has been moved over to help the other department in supervising the contractors working 24 hour shifts and I understand they are replacing all the cladding, possibly the window frames and some internal works in the affected buildings.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

The wife who works for Camden Council on the regeneration housing team and worked on projects like Agar Grove & Maiden Lane, has been moved over to help the other department in supervising the contractors working 24 hour shifts and I understand they are replacing all the cladding, possibly the window frames and some internal works in the affected buildings.

Of course - eventually. My point is that the urgency is only to make the blocks firesafe - ergo remove the dodgy cladding. Then the rest can happen.