Massive fire in London - Grenfell Tower in Shepherds Bush

[Herr Tubthumper]

You are quite odd and aggressive and have a very strange attack mentality .....this is shown by the ridiculous numerous arguments you have with other NSC members.....its sad you simply cant get on with people i will refuse to engage with you on this thread...you are simply too odd and angry

Pot kettle.

As it happens I don't find The Clamp aggressive in the slightest. He's got a particular style, with a bit of humour thrown in, which you might not like but to suggest it's aggressive is wrong.

 

[pastafarian]

You have a short memory. Or did over 700 people NOT get blown to pieces by the UDA and the UDF. Both terrorist groups that the DUP spawned and supported during the troubles, who could soon be a pivotal swing vote in our parliamentary process?

yeah you are right, **** it.....they are all pricks lets go back to war.
When do you want to start?

 

[The Clamp]

yes it is, i am fully aware, its the same
yet i am not a hypocrite ****.....i speak what i mean and if some people dont like it so be it.....i wont change my stance every now and then like clampy as change my position to suit

It's not that people don't "like what you speak". It's that they don't like you.

 

[Billy the Fish]

It shouldn't be about Theresa May specifically - I posted that earlier in the day - but it IS political. Not just here but everywhere. All over the mainstream media, all over Twitter and Facebook took. If this was a tragic car or plane accident for example there would be no need to bring politics in to it at all. No one did with Shoreham,

But the fact is the government defeated a Labour amendment for a review of the safety of rented housing in the last parliament.
The fact is Gavin Barwell, when Housing Minister sat on a fire safety report without ever making it public.
The fact is the residents predicted this in a blog.
The fact is that when a tower block full of people who couldn't afford to rent privately in inner London goes up like a matchstick it becomes an issue of them and us.

I don't doubt for a second that a few of the usual aggro seeking suspects joined in or attempted to hijack the protests but the majority of angry people are those associated to the victims, the displaced themselves and people living in similar accommodation.

This has the makings of class war (note small case letters), frankly, and that's as political as you get.

I agree that it's about politics, my post was specifically about Theresa May because she seems to be copping a lot of flack for things that are nothing to do with her. [MENTION=25508]soistes[/MENTION] summed it up very well earlier in the thread.

The usual suspects seem to be using this as an opportunity to play the "evil Tories" card when the reality is far more complex. We absolutely need to have a political debate, but nothing will come of it if people take the easy option and simply try to pin the whole thing on Tory ideology.

This disaster won't be the result of one single failing, it will be the cumulative effect many contributing factors which all add up to the perfect storm. There is truth in everything you've written. Others have highlighted building regs, I've heard a lot of talk about the way social housing tenants are treated by the associations and how grievances are badly dealt with. Local government needs to be held to account as social housing is their remit.

These problems haven't just occurred overnight, they've been festering over the course of many parliaments. There will probably be individuals with blood on their hands and they need to be held to account with evidence once we have all the facts (i.e the likes of Barwell and Paget-Brown). If politicians have blocked or filibustered bills then they need to be called out, but it's too simplistic to just blame the evil tories.

 

[Surf's Up]

Just opened up the last page of this thread and guess what?!! .........handbags at 10 paces between a couple of keyboard warriors and nothing about the subject matter.

 

[Chicken Run]

Pot kettle.

As it happens I don't find The Clamp aggressive in the slightest. He's got a particular style, with a bit of humour thrown in, which you might not like but to suggest it's aggressive is wrong.

What about his alter ego Nipple?

 

[Bob'n'weave]

yeah you are right, **** it.....they are all pricks lets go back to war.
When do you want to start?

Hmmmmmmmm. Not too good in the grey area are you.

We may well be 'back to war' if the peace process fails in NI.

 

[HOFNSKIN]

 

[Eeyore]

I just think that anyone like this fool 'Ernest' that want to blame one person and one person only have some intelligence missing in their lives. What a fuc*ing fool you are Ernest. What if this happened in Camden, Mornington Crescent, with the three big blocks there. Labour council, Labour MP, still the fault of one woman? Or, wouldn't we hear from you? You really are that stupid and I offer you idiot of the year 2017.

Knowing [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION] personally I can assure you he is no fool or idiot. He has more compassion and understanding in his right finger than a number of commentators who write here. I suggest you look closer to home to palm off your award.

 

[Spanish Seagulls]

Just opened up the last page of this thread and guess what?!! .........handbags at 10 paces between a couple of keyboard warriors and nothing about the subject matter.

Same, thought I was going to add some insight into a fire that killed many in my local area, I won't bother.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

quite, and i expect it will come to light that the cladding is used on various other modern new constructions, likey the sort sold to wealthy individuals. there isnt a special "poor persons" external building insulation material. the general concerns that appear to have been in play for some time about the building are another matter, and one wonders why the tenant led TMO has been neglectful, but surely its not because the residents are "poor".

Agreed that it isn't a simple rich/poor situation but the company that manufacture this cladding also appear to manufacture fire-resistant cladding and there must be customers for this. I would have thought the key thing here is the tender that was issued for this contract and how it was structured. If it just specified compliance with British Standard xxxxx and heavily weighted price in the way that bids would be scored the tendering firm would just offer the basic version. If there was more of an emphasis on fire safety they could have an incentive to offer the safer version. These should all have been considerations with conscious choices made. If the Council issued the tender for this a Freedom of Information request should provide access to the tender spec and any correspondence relating to it being set up, but probably not the actual final scores. If it was third party organisation that issued the tender it may be more difficult to get but hopefully more will come to light.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Knowing [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION] personally I can assure you he is no fool or idiot. He has more compassion and understanding in his right finger than a number of commentators who write here. I suggest you look closer to home to palm off your award.

Shame it doesn't come across I guess.

 

[Guinness Boy]

heres the report i believe you refer to. i dont know why its being said to be surpressed when its public. and i havent read th legislation refered to by the article mentions "private sector landlords" which wouldnt cover this building. why public and private landlord should be considered differently i do not know, that point isn't raised by the Guardian.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-mays-chief-staff-sat-10620357.amp

Bad choice of words. Sat on the findings. Or, specifically did not act on the fire safety recommendations and allowed the report to become effectively superfluous.

The management of Grenfell Tower was outsourced to the private sector, quite the grey area no?

How unlike you to pick up the use of a single word and think it gives you a right to support the status quo


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[Tom Hark Preston Park]

It's down to building regs.

The materials were either not up to specification or the specification was wrong.

Or there was cost-cutting. There was almost certainly cost-cutting. Politicians seem to turn a blind eye to cost-cutting. Let the low-level public servants deal with it. Austerity Is King.

So we outsource our call centres, cut our intelligence and emergency service head counts, pay a complete and utter shiester rail company up front to provide no service at all, treat the most vulnerable members of society like they were some kind of hindrance to the bright-eyed gung-ho go-getters in this brave new world. Let them eat shit.

It's garbage. We're one of the richest nations on earth.

This from last night's Evening Standard. Yet to be proven obviously, but by far the likeliest cause.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...tower-would-have-cost-just-5000-a3566476.html

Anger is growing over claims a series of safety failings led to the Grenfell Tower disaster after it emerged contractors could have spent just £5,000 more on fire-resistant cladding.

A “Justice for Grenfell” rally is set to take place in Westminster on Friday evening, while numerous distraught residents have demanded answers from politicians over the blaze that killed at least 17 people on Wednesday.

It comes amid claims contractors used the cheapest aluminium coated panels, which are reportedly outlawed in the United States over safety fears, as part of an £10m regeneration of the tower block last year.

The panels, known as Reynobond, were allegedly the only ones available to contractors that were not fire-resistant.

Reynobond sells fire-resistant panels for £24 per square metre, a £2 increase on the standard version.

A salesman for the US-based company has since told The Times that the version used on Grenfell, referred to as PE, was banned in American buildings taller than 40ft over fire safety reasons.

He said: “It's because of the fire and smoke spread. The FR (variant) is fire-resistant. The PE is just plastic.”

 

[Guinness Boy]

Or there was cost-cutting. There was almost certainly cost-cutting. Politicians seem to turn a blind eye to cost-cutting. Let the low-level public servants deal with it. Austerity Is King.

So we outsource our call centres, cut our intelligence and emergency service head counts, pay a complete and utter shiester rail company up front to provide no service at all, treat the most vulnerable members of society like they were some kind of hindrance to the bright-eyed gung-ho go-getters in this brave new world. Let them eat shit.

It's garbage. We're one of the richest nations on earth.

This from last night's Evening Standard. Yet to be proven obviously, but by far the likeliest cause.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...tower-would-have-cost-just-5000-a3566476.html

Anger is growing over claims a series of safety failings led to the Grenfell Tower disaster after it emerged contractors could have spent just £5,000 more on fire-resistant cladding.

A “Justice for Grenfell” rally is set to take place in Westminster on Friday evening, while numerous distraught residents have demanded answers from politicians over the blaze that killed at least 17 people on Wednesday.

It comes amid claims contractors used the cheapest aluminium coated panels, which are reportedly outlawed in the United States over safety fears, as part of an £10m regeneration of the tower block last year.

The panels, known as Reynobond, were allegedly the only ones available to contractors that were not fire-resistant.

Reynobond sells fire-resistant panels for £24 per square metre, a £2 increase on the standard version.

A salesman for the US-based company has since told The Times that the version used on Grenfell, referred to as PE, was banned in American buildings taller than 40ft over fire safety reasons.

He said: “It's because of the fire and smoke spread. The FR (variant) is fire-resistant. The PE is just plastic.”

Exactly Tommy

In times of austerity when a private company is involved they still have to make money but it's harder because the margins are smaller when everyone's pips are squeaked. The 5K could have been the difference between the company making a revenue / profit target on the job and not for all we know. Certainly people with more insight than me have said similar earlier in the thread.

You see this everywhere nowadays. In my industry, computer software, it happens all the time, Totally unsuitable work is outsourced to totally unsuitable companies in the name of cost saving. Those companies still have to make a profit though so they cut costs at the resourcing levels, human and infrastructure, resulting in terrible service and all round frustration. TCS are AWFUL yet people keep using them. Capita not much better. It's because, like the budgie, they're cheap. Luckily my software can't kill people.

 

[Butch Willykins]

Or there was cost-cutting. There was almost certainly cost-cutting. Politicians seem to turn a blind eye to cost-cutting. Let the low-level public servants deal with it. Austerity Is King.

So we outsource our call centres, cut our intelligence and emergency service head counts, pay a complete and utter shiester rail company up front to provide no service at all, treat the most vulnerable members of society like they were some kind of hindrance to the bright-eyed gung-ho go-getters in this brave new world. Let them eat shit.

It's garbage. We're one of the richest nations on earth.

This from last night's Evening Standard. Yet to be proven obviously, but by far the likeliest cause.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...tower-would-have-cost-just-5000-a3566476.html

Anger is growing over claims a series of safety failings led to the Grenfell Tower disaster after it emerged contractors could have spent just £5,000 more on fire-resistant cladding.

A “Justice for Grenfell” rally is set to take place in Westminster on Friday evening, while numerous distraught residents have demanded answers from politicians over the blaze that killed at least 17 people on Wednesday.

It comes amid claims contractors used the cheapest aluminium coated panels, which are reportedly outlawed in the United States over safety fears, as part of an £10m regeneration of the tower block last year.

The panels, known as Reynobond, were allegedly the only ones available to contractors that were not fire-resistant.

Reynobond sells fire-resistant panels for £24 per square metre, a £2 increase on the standard version.

A salesman for the US-based company has since told The Times that the version used on Grenfell, referred to as PE, was banned in American buildings taller than 40ft over fire safety reasons.

He said: “It's because of the fire and smoke spread. The FR (variant) is fire-resistant. The PE is just plastic.”

What will most likely have happened is the correct cladding will have been specified and approved. However someone in the supply chain will have seen an opportunity to 'value engineer', either to save money or increase profit. They will have switched the spec without gaining necessary approval. It happens day in day out on UK construction projects. The subbie will have known exactly what he was installing.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

What will most likely have happened is the correct cladding will have been specified and approved. However someone in the supply chain will have seen an opportunity to 'value engineer', either to save money or increase profit. They will have switched the spec without gaining necessary approval. It happens day in day out on UK construction projects. The subbie will have known exactly what he was installing.

Doubt it somehow. Everybody down the entire money chain will have adhered to minimum standards. Without anybody taking overall responsibility for the signing off of this penny-pinching shit. Will be tricky to establish corporate responsibility. But it's corporate manslaughter, wherever the buck eventually falls. Higher the better. Total c*nts.

 

[Butch Willykins]

Doubt it somehow. Everybody down the entire money chain will have adhered to minimum standards. Without anybody taking overall responsibility for the signing off of this penny-pinching shit. Will be tricky to establish corporate responsibility. But it's corporate manslaughter, wherever the buck eventually falls. Higher the better. Total c*nts.

Fair enough. Although I will disclose my assumption is based on 15yrs experience in the construction industry, the last 5 of which have been directly involved in the cladding of tall buildings, both retro fit and new build.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

What will most likely have happened is the correct cladding will have been specified and approved. However someone in the supply chain will have seen an opportunity to 'value engineer', either to save money or increase profit. They will have switched the spec without gaining necessary approval. It happens day in day out on UK construction projects. The subbie will have known exactly what he was installing.

So are you saying this could well be manslaughter?

 

[Diego Napier]

BBC Website:

And yet on the ground people speak of a total lack of coordination from the government and Kensington and Chelsea council.

Local residents' association representatives say some families are still sleeping on floors in centres around the Grenfell Tower four days after the fire.

Crisis management at disasters around the world swings into action at varying speeds. But even in remote areas, international bodies have normally set up obvious local centres of support fairly soon after the event.

It has not happened in North Kensington.

Twenty-four hours after the 2010 Haitian earthquake, I arrived to find no international response to speak of. But within another 24 hours that response was arriving and was significant there three days after the disaster - teams from around the world flying in, crisis centres and the United Nations in control of feeding points and housing solutions. Yes, there were problems. There always are. But the centralised and visible response was in place days later in a relatively remote area.
That is what appears to be missing in the richest borough in one of the world's leading cities.