[News] Mass Migration

[borat]

As a country we aim to spend 0.5% of Gross National Income on Foreign Aid, or Overseas Development as I think it is now called. It used to be 1%. Cut to 0.7 for austerity and 0.5 for Covid. We also count the money we spend on an asylum seeker in the first 12 months as part of this foreign aid budget. Last year almost 30% of the foreign aid budget was accounted for by spending in the UK, on the asylum system.

Fascinating interview with an ex FT journalist who investigated and wrote a book on Foreign Aid. Its a real eye opener

 

[Horses Arse]

This human tragedy continues with daily drownings and governments unable to devise or implement effective controls or solutions regardless.

The scale will continue to rise, and seemingly so will the problems.

Realistically what if anything can be done? The drivers are unstoppable eg climate, famine, war, unemployment, population growth. All summarised as survival basically.

It seems the only eventually will be such disorder as to rival something rarely or never witnessed in history ie complete collapse of civil society. I concur with David Attenborough in this sense, have done since before he upped the rhetoric.

Can we get this sorted via NSC I wonder? Post comments here and I’ll ensure the PM gets ‘em!

The action that has been taken is to ramp up the hate and put obstacles in place to migration so that with increased mass migration to escape rising sea levels and related climate change disasters there is existing resistance and barriers in place.

I'm sure that this is what is behind the current 'schemes' - they know its no issue/problem right now but are moving toward a period where the survivable landmass reduction accelerates. We'll be pushing boats away from the east anglians within 50 years no doubt

 

[brightn'ove]

I've never quite understand why climate change denying / ignoring seems to be a right-wing viewpoint. If the climate does change how most scientist predict then places that are going to be the most affected by it are going to be poor countries in Africa / Asia etc. Where are all their fleeing people going to go? Here.

So it should be the other way around, no? Right-wingers should be more concerned about climate change than anyone else if they don't want a load more Johnny Foreigners converging on our shores. I've never understood why it's even seen as a political subject in the first place.

because these people do not have the ability to see beyond what is affecting/annoying them right now.

it's also not too much of a leap to suggest that those same people would be in favour of something like.. i don't know.. genocide, if things got bad.

 

[Bakero]

because these people do not have the ability to see beyond what is affecting/annoying them right now.

it's also not too much of a leap to suggest that those same people would be in favour of something like.. i don't know.. genocide, if things got bad.

And they want to have their cake and eat it. Any problems caused by their actions are seen as collateral damage or, more likely, not even acknowledged.

 

[raymondo]

More Foreign Aid? We already give about £2,500 Billion a year, mainly to Afghanistan, Nigeria, Pakistan, Ethiopia and Yemen which have incredibly corrupt Govts.

The USA gives $51Billion as a comparison.

The only way is to get non corrupt Govts in these countries but look at how it's gone in Afghanistan, Iraq etc... when military might is used.

I don't know what the solution is, but with corrupt and uncaring Govts, more Aid means more taxes for us and newer Rolls Royces and more money in the Swiss Bank Accounts of the people in charge of those countries

Our government (and my MP, whom I've questionned on this) state that the UK has very detailed oversight on the local governments and NGOs, as to how the aid is used... I'm afraid I don't believe them.

 

[raymondo]

For a start we could do with some joined up thinking when it comes to migration and economic policies. For example, not so long ago the EU struck a deal with Senegal allowing Spanish boats to fish in Senegalese waters. Lo and behold, fish stocks are now depleted leading to economic hardship. 3 guesses where the majority of African migrants in Spain come from.

Broadly, we need to address the issue of food sovereignty overall. Right now multinational corporations preside over the entire food chain which begets all manner of problems.

So possibly the Senegalese ministers did quite well out of that deal

 

[Bakero]

So possibly the Senegalese ministers did quite well out of that deal

I imagine so, yes. Obviously, the deal was supposed to allow "sustainable" fishing and there were certain restrictions and regulations. In reality it's been a bit of a disaster as far as I know.

 

[Baldseagull]

Fascinating interview with an ex FT journalist who investigated and wrote a book on Foreign Aid. Its a real eye opener

Yeah, I still think the answer is to make it work better, and increase the budget.

 

[raymondo]

I imagine so, yes. Obviously, the deal was supposed to allow "sustainable" fishing and there were certain restrictions and regulations. In reality it's been a bit of a disaster as far as I know.

It's a continuing weakness of humans...our inability to manage stuff in an evenhanded, sustainable way, devoid of greed.

 

[portlock seagull]

Who controls the ingress and egress from a territory will be determined by who has the biggest guns and the most motivation to use them.

I really can see this. If we use ‘the boat’ analogy, ironically or even in bad taste which I’m not intentionally doing btw: If a country keeps on taking more and more people onboard - on the scale that’s predicted - the ‘boat’ eventually will sink. Or a fight breaks out beforehand as to who’s allowed ‘on board’. Or even remain onboard.

On the face of it, we are a supposedly civilised and democratic country. Which means we’re never going to start shooting desperate ‘boarders’ even as panic and chaos engulfs us. The thought of that, even for self preservation, is utterly incomprehensible. Instead ‘the Captain’ calls for calm and order. More talk. Which is what liberal democracies do. Except by then nobody’s listening and somebody may even now shoot the captain to impose their ‘law’, a bit like the shock we got after Singapore fell in 1942 and we thought everyone abided by the Geneva convention / opposing Generals still had tea together after the battle.

The chattering classes, with their very liberal and idealistic perspective, at this point, get drowned out. Bypassed. Or even run over. Years of talking about the need to tackle problems without any real action because we’ve no idea / can agree / everyone’s too corrupt etc instead comes to a juddering, seismic shock ending stop as law of the jungle takes over. With rules they have no idea or experience of how to play. Effectively they get told to shut the **** up, or even shot themselves (for being so stupid as to not realise the situation around them!). Government in the sense we currently know has by this stage collapsed, washed away by a survival of the strongest / richest new order. Who frankly only care about themselves as is demonstrabley evident already. You’re either in or out. Most of us will be out. In the drink. It matters not if you were in before, or even owned ‘the boat.’

Morale of the story here is revolution occurs and bursts through when enough stress is applied. Since dawn of mankind this has regularly occurred and it feels like a new age is nearly upon us. Things cannot continue. It only takes a small minority to burst through. The majority passively watch on, distracted by day to day existing survival struggle or ignoring the warnings because they feel helpless to prevent or cannot comprehend. I count myself in that sense. I’m not a leader. And I’ve no idea how to prevent. I’m just a keen observer of history and human behaviour.

What’s the 2nd half of this century going to look like? Very different for sure. Most of us on here won’t see, but I can completely understand why younger and new generations will loath us. My only comeback to that is I don’t think they, in our shoes, would have done differently. Everyone’s out for themselves, certainly those with all the power appear that way. Dictatorships and Democracies. It’s getting harder to distinguish between these days!

I really need a beer…

 

[Bakero]

Our government (and my MP, whom I've questionned on this) state that the UK has very detailed oversight on the local governments and NGOs, as to how the aid is used... I'm afraid I don't believe them.

I imagine the government are well aware of where the aid goes and its function, which is to further our geopolitical aims and boost trade. Of course, disaster relief etc is an absolute necessity but the aid system as a whole is a sham and the name a misnomer.

 

[portlock seagull]

It's a continuing weakness of humans...our inability to manage stuff in an evenhanded, sustainable way, devoid of greed.

Bingo! Boils down to I suppose.

 

[portlock seagull]

The action that has been taken is to ramp up the hate and put obstacles in place to migration so that with increased mass migration to escape rising sea levels and related climate change disasters there is existing resistance and barriers in place.

I'm sure that this is what is behind the current 'schemes' - they know its no issue/problem right now but are moving toward a period where the survivable landmass reduction accelerates. We'll be pushing boats away from the east anglians within 50 years no doubt

I think you’re right. The tragedy will continue therefore. Because who can begrudge another human being leaving their land because of basic survival needs? We would ALL do exactly the same. We’re genetically coded to do so!

Divide and rule seems the only game our politicians can play, I agree. It’s not a solution though, if one exists.

 

[Bakero]

It's a continuing weakness of humans...our inability to manage stuff in an evenhanded, sustainable way, devoid of greed.

I just asked Jeff Bezos to solve world hunger and build 100,000 doctors' surgeries. He said it's fine as he'd still have 300 mill for essentials. https://3pic.github.io/money

 

[portlock seagull]

I just asked Jeff Bezos to solve world hunger and build 100,000 doctors' surgeries. He said it's fine as he'd still have 300 mill for essentials. https://3pic.github.io/money

I know this was posted in jest but ain’t it the crux of it?

I was amazed when, several years ago, I took issue with people praising Bezos for donating £19 billion. NINETEEN BILLION (vidiprinter style)

Lots people asked why I was criticising such philanthropy? Because I pointed out he still had £123 billion after donating that! How on earth does one person have such wealth, and moreover why? WTF do you need ‘just’ one of those billions for? (a side from taking a football club from despair to discoteque?!) Why not give the other £122 billion away also, and keep the £1billion for swimming pools, football and birds?

I was amazed how many people defended him, said it was easy to criticise when it’s not my money etc. As if he has truly ‘earned it’? He had a genius idea, but how fortunate was the timing of his birth etc? His genes? People never seem to think about this, as if everyone who accumulates wealth has somehow earned it from the gutter to the stars as Norm would say. Utter gubbins. It’s the lottery of life, and most people of wealth, serious wealth, get a bloody good hand to start with and an awful lot of luck to boot.

 

[Sorrel]

I'll be going to a citizenship ceremony next week, for a member of my team I sponsored to work in the UK and have been helping him through UK bureaucracy. I've not been to one before, but I'm interested to see both what it is like and who the other 29 people getting it at the same time will be. This is another side of the ongoing migration - the legal side - which there is plenty of in the UK at the moment.

One of things I wish we did as a country is - like Spain - not allow dual citizenship, so that those of us here are fully invested in the country. But I suspect it is too nice an earner for the government to do that (and it would have repercussions in Northern Ireland) so won't happen for many years.

 

[Horses Arse]

I'll be going to a citizenship ceremony next week, for a member of my team I sponsored to work in the UK and have been helping him through UK bureaucracy. I've not been to one before, but I'm interested to see both what it is like and who the other 29 people getting it at the same time will be. This is another side of the ongoing migration - the legal side - which there is plenty of in the UK at the moment.

One of things I wish we did as a country is - like Spain - not allow dual citizenship, so that those of us here are fully invested in the country. But I suspect it is too nice an earner for the government to do that (and it would have repercussions in Northern Ireland) so won't happen for many years.

OK if reciprocated for brits I guess. Anyone off to spain loses British citizenship

 

[raymondo]

I really

I imagine the government are well aware of where the aid goes and its function, which is to further our geopolitical aims and boost trade. Of course, disaster relief etc is an absolute necessity but the aid system as a whole is a sham and the name a misnomer.

I think 'aware of where it's given to...' but we won't have the proof it goes to the people at the coal face that need it. There'll be layers of corruption involved, I'm sure.

 

[portlock seagull]

I'll be going to a citizenship ceremony next week, for a member of my team I sponsored to work in the UK and have been helping him through UK bureaucracy. I've not been to one before, but I'm interested to see both what it is like and who the other 29 people getting it at the same time will be. This is another side of the ongoing migration - the legal side - which there is plenty of in the UK at the moment.

One of things I wish we did as a country is - like Spain - not allow dual citizenship, so that those of us here are fully invested in the country. But I suspect it is too nice an earner for the government to do that (and it would have repercussions in Northern Ireland) so won't happen for many years.

I agree. When once proud to be British, I now feel disadvantaged. Because of our former empire, everyone except me has half a dozen passports and can claim to be British (come help me, poor me, I’ve never stepped foot in the UK but I’m in trouble in Sudan/Yemen/Pitcairn Islands and you need to come pick me up because I am a BRITISH citizen and I’m entitled to all the benefits…who’s your PM btw…is the Queen still on the throne…etc?!) Seems everyone but I can flash a different passport to suit. And they never think of here as home really. It’s just a perk. Sort of the international version of a current JCL and Albion diehard ie ‘where were you when we were shit?!’

 

[Bakero]

I think 'aware of where it's given to...' but we won't have the proof it goes to the people at the coal face that need it. There'll be layers of corruption involved, I'm sure.

Layers is putting it mildly. The idea that our government is sending billions overseas in order to help those in need when they're happy to have hunger and homelessness at home is laughable.

As I suggested before, some money does go to the right places but the whole thing needs reform. Problem is there's no political will to effect change as the current system does what is was designed to do.