[Football] Mason Holgate.

[Eric the meek]

You clearly don't. Do you think they should have sat on the info about the racism until the debate about the tackle had run it's course?

There was severe criticism at half-time, and then again on MOTD. I don't know when the racism began, but the club absolutely did sit on it. Then late yesterday, more than 48 hours after the tackle, both the club and Holgate issued statements about the racism.

Holgate issued his statement of apology, and published some of the racism in the same post on Instagram. He conflated the two things. You said that they didn't conflate them. You were wrong.

Whatever the intention was (and it is reasonable to assume an attempt at damage limitation), the cold, hard fact is that broadcasting the racism has moved the narrative away from the tackle. Did they mean to do it? Why would they go public if they didn't mean for it to happen?

 

[Doc Lynam]

Disgusting. Asians are notoriously racist, I mean bloody hell, most races have a racism problem, I don't think it will ever go.

They can have gang issues as well.

 

[StonehamPark]

'Humans' are notoriously racist" would be.

It would also be true.

I think what @NorthstandRacoon was trying to say, was that there are large parts of Asia that are nowhere near as multi-cultural as the UK, and where racism towards black people is more prevalent than it is here. I would find it difficult to argue with that, personally.

But let's not miss an opportunity to cry RACIST! at somebody who was actually trying to condemn racism, and used his words clumsily eh? BURN HIM! BAN HIM!

Sure, I know it could have been a clumsy choice of words by the poster. I don’t believe what they wrote was racist, just a casual/lazy/‘dumb’ stereotypical statement.

As an aside, there’s a couple of lines from your reply I picked apart, not from an argumentative stance. More out of curiosity, having lived most of my adult life outside of the UK and most likely having developed different viewpoints.

1: “…there are large parts of Asia that are nowhere near as multi-cultural as the UK”

- Do you believe (or are you stating) that more multiculturalism = less instances (or examples) of racism/less racism in general?

2: “and (‘in large parts of Asia’) where racism towards black people is more prevalent than it is here.”

- Would you agree that you could point to large parts of other continents, where racism towards black people is more prevalent than it is in England/southern England?

 

[drew]

There was severe criticism at half-time, and then again on MOTD. I don't know when the racism began, but the club absolutely did sit on it. Then late yesterday, more than 48 hours after the tackle, both the club and Holgate issued statements about the racism.

Holgate issued his statement of apology, and published some of the racism in the same post on Instagram. He conflated the two things. You said that they didn't conflate them. You were wrong.

Whatever the intention was (and it is reasonable to assume an attempt at damage limitation), the cold, hard fact is that broadcasting the racism has moved the narrative away from the tackle. Did they mean to do it? Why would they go public if they didn't mean for it to happen?

You really have to ask why they would go public about racist attack on their player!! Do you know when Holgate reported it to the club? Isn't it possible he thought one or two comments he could take but then it became intolerable. Maybe he reported it on Monday and the club called a meeting to decide how to respond. Whatever the sequence, it changes nothing about the tackle and nothing about his punishment which is an automatic 3 match ban therefore nothing to do with damage limitation. If anyone is conflating the two it is yourself.

 

[Eric the meek]

You really have to ask why they would go public about racist attack on their player!! Do you know when Holgate reported it to the club? Isn't it possible he thought one or two comments he could take but then it became intolerable. Maybe he reported it on Monday and the club called a meeting to decide how to respond. Whatever the sequence, it changes nothing about the tackle and nothing about his punishment which is an automatic 3 match ban therefore nothing to do with damage limitation. If anyone is conflating the two it is yourself.

In my comment above, I recounted the sequence and timeline of what we know - actually - happened.

In your reply, you invent scenarios and timelines which support your argument, but which you have no idea if they reflect the reality.

You will have seen that Holgate clearly conflated the tackle and the racism in his initial Instagram post, but you still accuse me of doing the conflating....

I think this discussion has run its course.

 

[Commander]

Sure, I know it could have been a clumsy choice of words by the poster. I don’t believe what they wrote was racist, just a casual/lazy/‘dumb’ stereotypical statement.

As an aside, there’s a couple of lines from your reply I picked apart, not from an argumentative stance. More out of curiosity, having lived most of my adult life outside of the UK and most likely having developed different viewpoints.

1: “…there are large parts of Asia that are nowhere near as multi-cultural as the UK”

- Do you believe (or are you stating) that more multiculturalism = less instances (or examples) of racism/less racism in general?

2: “and (‘in large parts of Asia’) where racism towards black people is more prevalent than it is here.”

- Would you agree that you could point to large parts of other continents, where racism towards black people is more prevalent than it is in England/southern England?

1. I think that in somewhere like the UK with a hugely diverse, multi-cultural population, it makes sense that there is less racism towards black people than other places without that demographic of population, as people here live and work with people of all races, colours and creeds here. Obviously there is still racism around, but I think it is probably different to somewhere where most people don't interact with black people on a day to day basis.

2. Yes, you could. The Middle East, for example (I'm never quite sure if that counts as Asia or not!), or parts of South America. Or even parts of the USA. But in the 2nd post on this thread @hans kraay fan club said "Mostly from angry Asians", so that is the part of the world that was being discussed.

 

[Official Old Man]

5Live this morning (Wednesday) had a full article on the Maupay incident a few years back when The Albion & FA chased up, found & succesfully prosecuted a troll who threatened Maupay and his family.

Inside the Premier League unit hunting online trolls who threaten players

The BBC meets the troll-hunting unit that striker Neal Maupay called when his family were threatened online.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[StonehamPark]

1. I think that in somewhere like the UK with a hugely diverse, multi-cultural population, it makes sense that there is less racism towards black people than other places without that demographic of population, as people here live and work with people of all races, colours and creeds here. Obviously there is still racism around, but I think it is probably different to somewhere where most people don't interact with black people on a day to day basis.

2. Yes, you could. The Middle East, for example (I'm never quite sure if that counts as Asia or not!), or parts of South America. Or even parts of the USA. But in the 2nd post on this thread @hans kraay fan club said "Mostly from angry Asians", so that is the part of the world that was being discussed.

Thanks for the though-out and well reasoned reply.
A couple of counter-points;

1: "I think that in somewhere like the UK with a hugely diverse, multi-cultural population, it makes sense that there is less racism towards black people than other places without that demographic of population..."

- I would put forward the USA, Australia, Brazil and even Canada, as examples of nations with hugely diverse and multi-cultural populations, which each suffer from moderate to very high levels of racism towards black people. (I use these countries as examples as I've personally lived and worked in each for a significant amount of time.) How does it (in your opinion) make sense that there is less racism towards black people (in the UK), compared to my referenced examples.

2a: "The Middle East, for example (I'm never quite sure if that counts as Asia or not!)"

- Not to appear condescending whatsoever here! A passion of mine is geography and Geo-Politics, yes the 'middle east' is within Asia. Think of anything East of Egypt in that general area (middle east), as part of Asia, including almost all of Turkey.

2b: "...so that is the part of the world that was being discussed. (Asia)"

- Sure, I think my point from my first post in the thread (highlighting the mass-generaliazation/stereoytype of "Asians are notoriously racist"), was to put forward my opinion that there are likely as many nations (and continents) which feature similar levels of racism as 'all of Asia'.
To simplify, I believe it unfair to tar 'Asia' as being notoriously racist, when plenty of other counties (and continents) are likely no different in terms of overall racism, prejudice and generally poor treatment of others. In either case, I believe it's probably impossible to measure it accurately regardless.

 

[Commander]

Thanks for the though-out and well reasoned reply.
A couple of counter-points;

1: "I think that in somewhere like the UK with a hugely diverse, multi-cultural population, it makes sense that there is less racism towards black people than other places without that demographic of population..."

- I would put forward the USA, Australia, Brazil and even Canada, as examples of nations with hugely diverse and multi-cultural populations, which each suffer from moderate to very high levels of racism towards black people. (I use these countries as examples as I've personally lived and worked in each for a significant amount of time.) How does it (in your opinion) make sense that there is less racism towards black people (in the UK), compared to my referenced examples.

2a: "The Middle East, for example (I'm never quite sure if that counts as Asia or not!)"

- Not to appear condescending whatsoever here! A passion of mine is geography and Geo-Politics, yes the 'middle east' is within Asia. Think of anything East of Egypt in that general area (middle east), as part of Asia, including almost all of Turkey.

2b: "...so that is the part of the world that was being discussed. (Asia)"

- Sure, I think my point from my first post in the thread (highlighting the mass-generaliazation/stereoytype of "Asians are notoriously racist"), was to put forward my opinion that there are likely as many nations (and continents) which feature similar levels of racism as 'all of Asia'.
To simplify, I believe it unfair to tar 'Asia' as being notoriously racist, when plenty of other counties (and continents) are likely no different in terms of overall racism, prejudice and generally poor treatment of others. In either case, I believe it's probably impossible to measure it accurately regardless.

I guess with number 1. it can work both ways. Some people may be more inclined towards racism if they are seeing the object of their prejudices every day, I get that. But I think that these people are far less likely to message a black footballer on social media with the kind of messages that were sent to Holgate, because they know they are entirely unacceptable in their society. Somebody in Dubai, for example, is far less likely to feel that same level of shame or disgust that the somebody in the UK would at something like that.

2a, Yes I'm aware it's officially Asia, it just doesn't really feel like it in my head. Same as Russia doesn't. I think of Asia as basically China, India, the Stans and the Far East. Obviously I know this is incorrect officially though.

2b, You are of course correct, but it's a bit of whataboutery really. If I said "there is a high level of racism in Italy", you saying "Yes but there is also in Spain" doesn't change the fact that there is in Italy. If you see what I mean. And Asia seems to be where this particular abuse has come from.

 

[London Irish]

Can't believe some of the comments on here. Racist bullshit being chucked online at black British footballers by British fans has been pretty non-stop in recent years and now some are pretending we are some island of tolerance compared with parts of Asia. No doubt they have their problems as do other parts of the world but how about you concentrate on doing something you can affect, which is not lying about the scale of the problem in this country

 

[Milano]

So have the EPL actually banned him for that 'tackle' yet? Surely not just 3 games?

 

[Hastings gull]

Can't believe some of the comments on here. Racist bullshit being chucked online at black British footballers by British fans has been pretty non-stop in recent years and now some are pretending we are some island of tolerance compared with parts of Asia. No doubt they have their problems as do other parts of the world but how about you concentrate on doing something you can affect, which is not lying about the scale of the problem in this country

Perhaps it is you who is lying! I don't think anyone is pretending that we live on an island of tolerance. Of course there are racist incidents everywhere, sadly, but the majority of people in this country do not approve of abuse of people simply because of their colour. Presumably with your last sentence in mind you think the vast majority are in fact inclined towards racism.

 

[Commander]

Can't believe some of the comments on here. Racist bullshit being chucked online at black British footballers by British fans has been pretty non-stop in recent years and now some are pretending we are some island of tolerance compared with parts of Asia. No doubt they have their problems as do other parts of the world but how about you concentrate on doing something you can affect, which is not lying about the scale of the problem in this country

As always LI, you read what you want to read.

 

[dazzer6666]

To simplify, I believe it unfair to tar 'Asia' as being notoriously racist, when plenty of other counties (and continents) are likely no different in terms of overall racism, prejudice and generally poor treatment of others. In either case, I believe it's probably impossible to measure it accurately regardless.

Northern ones ? Or Kent ?

 

[StonehamPark]

I guess with number 1. it can work both ways. Some people may be more inclined towards racism if they are seeing the object of their prejudices every day, I get that. But I think that these people are far less likely to message a black footballer on social media with the kind of messages that were sent to Holgate, because they know they are entirely unacceptable in their society. Somebody in Dubai, for example, is far less likely to feel that same level of shame or disgust that the somebody in the UK would at something like that.

2a, Yes I'm aware it's officially Asia, it just doesn't really feel like it in my head. Same as Russia doesn't. I think of Asia as basically China, India, the Stans and the Far East. Obviously I know this is incorrect officially though.

2b, You are of course correct, but it's a bit of whataboutery really. If I said "there is a high level of racism in Italy", you saying "Yes but there is also in Spain" doesn't change the fact that there is in Italy. If you see what I mean. And Asia seems to be where this particular abuse has come from.

"I get that. But I think that these people are far less likely to message a black footballer on social media with the kind of messages that were sent to Holgate, because they know they are entirely unacceptable in their society."

- That's a great point that I hadn't considered.

"If I said "there is a high level of racism in Italy", you saying "Yes but there is also in Spain" doesn't change the fact that there is in Italy. If you see what I mean."

- I do see what you mean, however I believe a more accurate comparison would be; "there is a high level of racism in Europe", and my reply would be; "yes, but I believe there is likely to be an equal amount of racism in any other continent".

--

I imagine we likely agree on the core issue/argument.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

So have the EPL actually banned him for that 'tackle' yet? Surely not just 3 games?

I had a look on the FA website at discipline and it appears to be the standard 3 games.

 

[drew]

In my comment above, I recounted the sequence and timeline of what we know - actually - happened.

In your reply, you invent scenarios and timelines which support your argument, but which you have no idea if they reflect the reality.

You will have seen that Holgate clearly conflated the tackle and the racism in his initial Instagram post, but you still accuse me of doing the conflating....

I think this discussion has run its course.

Fine, but you just stated a timeline and drew conclusions from that. I don't see anywhere where he or Sheffield are trying to deflect away from the tackle by using racism. Conflate means to combine two entirely separate things to create something new. The racism wouldn't have happened without the tackle, they are intrinsically linked.

 

[Hastings gull]

I had a look on the FA website at discipline and it appears to be the standard 3 games.

Yes, I assume that would be the case. If they start adding on a game or two, then the whole thing becomes very subjective and open to argument. Having said that, you can't help believing that THAT tackle really did deserve more!

 

[London Irish]

Perhaps it is you who is lying! I don't think anyone is pretending that we live on an island of tolerance. Of course there are racist incidents everywhere, sadly, but the majority of people in this country do not approve of abuse of people simply because of their colour. Presumably with your last sentence in mind you think the vast majority are in fact inclined towards racism.

Ask me what I think rather than pretending you know? Do you want me to make up stuff about what you think and post it on NSC?

Also, do you follow the news at all? The abuse of the penalty takers Saka, Rashford and Sancho was merely the highest profile of a series of endless, non-stop incidents in this country regarding online racism. People are being sent to jail regularly for this. The evidence is endless and not going away, Google is your friend.

 

[Sussax]

Ask me what I think rather than pretending you know? Do you want me to make up stuff about what you think and post it on NSC?

Also, do you follow the news at all? The abuse of the penalty takers Saka, Rashford and Sancho was merely the highest profile of a series of endless, non-stop incidents in this country regarding online racism. People are being sent to jail regularly for this. The evidence is endless and not going away, Google is your friend.

I don’t think you’re getting it.

No-one is saying that racism (whether online or in person) is non existent in this country. Even in the examples you mentioned, it’s been reported and even Southgate mentioned, that the majority of the racist abused stemmed from outside the UK.

Here’s a link - although I’m sure you’ll find another example to suit your agenda.

Majority of racist abuse targeting England players ‘from outside UK’

The majority of the racist trolling targeting England footballers has emanated from overseas accounts, according to expert analysis.

metro.co.uk

No-one on this thread is saying the UK is perfect, or anywhere close to it. We as a country have a lot still to do, but saying other countries/areas may be worse for racism isn’t saying that it’s non existent in this country.

FWIW - I think when online racist abuse does happen in this country it’s dealt with very seriously by police. The abuse that stems from outside the country is a lot harder to convict (partly due to the attitudes of said countries).