[Albion] Marc Cucurella *Signed For Chelsea 05/08/2022*

[boik]

I'm not sure that a number of Champions League wins proves much. Success in knock-out competitions is often down to a poor performance on the day, a poor refereeing decision, any number of factors, while league titles generally indicate sustained excellence. And it's hard to fault Guardiola on that front. And really, why bother bringing through academy players if you can go out and buy someone better? (As Dan Ashworth may be wondering at Newcastle.)

On the other hand, I agree that Pep has had the considerable advantage in title-gathering of managing three wealthy clubs, two of whom were serial champions and one of which was, when he arrived, the richest club in world football. We may or may not believe that he could achieve the sort of transformation at, say, Mansfield or Carlisle that Poyet did here, but until he tries it we don't know. It would make a great TV reality show, or become a great reality check..

Your right about the poor decisions. Remember that Mourinho might have been nowhere without Paul Scholes winning goal being incorrectly ruled out by a linesman in the 2004 CL. If that hadn't happened, Porto wouldn't have got to and won the final and JMs reputation might not have been made.

 

[boik]

Because if i owned Shitty and had pumped the vast sums of money that he has been given, i would have expected better in the C/L. Pep can go out and buy the best players in the world, but would he have achieved what he has at shitty with a budget of say West Ham? Imo no. All i am saying is he is over rated.

IMO Potter, Moyes, Conte, Dyche and the Brentford manager are just as good, if they were managing Shitty i believe that there would not be much difference between titles won.

"Shitty"? Seriously?

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

Because if i owned Shitty and had pumped the vast sums of money that he has been given, i would have expected better in the C/L. Pep can go out and buy the best players in the world, but would he have achieved what he has at shitty with a budget of say West Ham? Imo no. All i am saying is he is over rated.

IMO Potter, Moyes, Conte, Dyche and the Brentford manager are just as good, if they were managing Shitty i believe that there would not be much difference between titles won.

If you don't value the champions league why do you value winning it?

I am not and never have said that Guardiola will win a shed load of top trophies at any club. He will however improve significantly any club, IMO. His record speaks for itself.

If it was so easy why are they more succesful under Guardiola than they were under anyone else?

If it was so easy Man Utd would not be such a farce. Moyes who you think would win the same number of trophies if he was at Man City took over the premier league champions and did what?

You seriously think Dyche would win as many trophies as Guardiola? Seriously? No, seriously?

We'll have to wait and see with Potter but I suspect he won't/wouldn't.

Conte? His career has been as long as Guardiola. He's undoubtedly a very good manager(serie A manager of the year 4 times). He has nine trophies in his career. A decent return. Guardiola has 33.

Frank? He's done a good job at Brentford. Not sure that's enough to say he could equal Guardiola.

I don't think we're going to agree on this but I'll ask again. Which coach in the past 20 plus years has been more influential on the way Football is played, coached and understood?

 

[Swansman]

If you don't value the champions league why do you value winning it?

I am not and never have said that Guardiola will win a shed load of top trophies at any club. He will however improve significantly any club, IMO. His record speaks for itself.

If it was so easy why are they more succesful under Guardiola than they were under anyone else?

If it was so easy Man Utd would not be such a farce. Moyes who you think would win the same number of trophies if he was at Man City took over the premier league champions and did what?

You seriously think Dyche would win as many trophies as Guardiola? Seriously? No, seriously?

We'll have to wait and see with Potter but I suspect he won't/wouldn't.

Conte? His career has been as long as Guardiola. He's undoubtedly a very good manager(serie A manager of the year 4 times). He has nine trophies in his career. A decent return. Guardiola has 33.

Frank? He's done a good job at Brentford. Not sure that's enough to say he could equal Guardiola.

I don't think we're going to agree on this but I'll ask again. Which coach in the past 20 plus years has been more influential on the way Football is played, coached and understood?

All of these things are always pretty difficult to speculate about as we don't really see any of them doing any work. We see them yelling instructions (that players usually won't even hear) from the sidelines and point and wave and shit - none of the training sessions (well I've seen two recorded sessions with Pep but that doesnt say a whole lot), no tactical briefings ahead of games, no dressing room talks, none of how they behave around the training facilities to help their clubs etc... we have very little information. Its like deciding whether a teacher is good or not without ever seeing them in the class room or interact with people without a dozen cameras shoved in their faces.

Obviously Pep can't be shite because then you won't win as many titles as he has. But it is difficult to compare with managers who never had the same level of quality to work with.

I would like to add though that it can be seen as a skill to make the right career move at the right time. Pep took the Barca job when they had a good organisation in place, people he could trust etc., same when he went to Bayern and later City. I don't think he would have accepted any of those jobs otherwise, whereas some (like Mourinho) appears to be looking at the salary and then making decisions only based on that... which frequently will end in tears (or laughter).

 

[Stat Brother]

Ake barely gets a game for them and is valued at £40-50m. Spends his city career sitting on the bench, and they want more money for him than they originally paid. & yet we're the ones apparently with an unrealistic valuation of our player?

If reports are to be believed they also seem to want £35m-40m for Zinchenko, a player that they seemingly want an upgrade on, but yet we're mad for wanting around £50m for Cucurella?! The logic is baffling. They want to sell a left back for the same price as they then purchase the upgrade for that position. Cant have it both ways.

Begging the question:-

Why are you bothering with this analysis, just to prove strangers who know nothing are wrong?

 

[SeagullinExile]

Re Guardiola being in management as long as Ferguson, I think you're right. 40 years is an incredible length of time to manage at the top.

As for Barrow. Yes, why not? Are you saying that Barrow have no chance of ever getting promoted as Champions with their current resources(whatever their current resources are)?

Oh come on dude! They finished just outside relegation. PG is a good coach, not a miracle worker!

 

[jessiejames]

If you don't value the champions league why do you value winning it?

I am not and never have said that Guardiola will win a shed load of top trophies at any club. He will however improve significantly any club, IMO. His record speaks for itself.

If it was so easy why are they more succesful under Guardiola than they were under anyone else?

If it was so easy Man Utd would not be such a farce. Moyes who you think would win the same number of trophies if he was at Man City took over the premier league champions and did what?

You seriously think Dyche would win as many trophies as Guardiola? Seriously? No, seriously?

We'll have to wait and see with Potter but I suspect he won't/wouldn't.

Conte? His career has been as long as Guardiola. He's undoubtedly a very good manager(serie A manager of the year 4 times). He has nine trophies in his career. A decent return. Guardiola has 33.

Frank? He's done a good job at Brentford. Not sure that's enough to say he could equal Guardiola.

I don't think we're going to agree on this but I'll ask again. Which coach in the past 20 plus years has been more influential on the way Football is played, coached and understood?

Im not the owner of them first of all, but if i was with the endless amount of money he has put in to the club im sure he would have expected to of won the CL surley. As i said earlier the CL is easier to win now than the European cup.

I have never said Pep is not a good coach, i just think he is over rated.
With regards to the managers mentioned how many of them have been backed financially like Pep, none.

If Pep left tommorow for Man Utd would they win the PL this season, no they would not. How many players in the City squad started in the youth side, 2 because Pep wants players already at the top of their game, thats why he wants Cucu from us, even thoughhe was aware of him and liked the way he plays before he joined us.

Attractive style of football was around including playing out from the back before Pep got into management. These are my opinions, give him a budget of what Potter has be will struggle.

 

[jessiejames]

"Shitty"? Seriously?

Yes, why not.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

Oh come on dude! They finished just outside relegation. PG is a good coach, not a miracle worker!

The lower leagues are great for teams being crap one season and good the next. Cooper took over Forest in the relegation places and in the same season got them promoted. Poyet took over a team in or on the edge of the relegation places and 18 months later we had waltzed our way to the title. It's not some never been done before feat. Maybe it'd take a couple of seasons but he'd do it.

Im not the owner of them first of all, but if i was with the endless amount of money he has put in to the club im sure he would have expected to of won the CL surley. As i said earlier the CL is easier to win now than the European cup.

I have never said Pep is not a good coach, i just think he is over rated.
With regards to the managers mentioned how many of them have been backed financially like Pep, none.

If Pep left tommorow for Man Utd would they win the PL this season, no they would not. How many players in the City squad started in the youth side, 2 because Pep wants players already at the top of their game, thats why he wants Cucu from us, even thoughhe was aware of him and liked the way he plays before he joined us.

Attractive style of football was around including playing out from the back before Pep got into management. These are my opinions, give him a budget of what Potter has be will struggle.

No, he wouldn't win the league next season if he took over Man Utd. He didn't win the league in his first year at city either.

Maybe the Man City youth players aren't of a high enough standard? The majority of his all conquering Barca team were from the Barca academy.

If what he has achieved is so easy, why has no one else done it?

And which teams were playing football the way Barca were before 2008? Which coach has influenced football as much in recent years? I'll say it again, the way that so many teams, at so many levels from youth football up bare the mark of his footballing philosophy makes him the most influential coach this century.

And then I'll leave it there because I don't think we're going to agree and there's probably plenty of people opening the thread expecting to see some news on Cucurella and instead are getting me banging on about Guardiola.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

All of these things are always pretty difficult to speculate about as we don't really see any of them doing any work. We see them yelling instructions (that players usually won't even hear) from the sidelines and point and wave and shit - none of the training sessions (well I've seen two recorded sessions with Pep but that doesnt say a whole lot), no tactical briefings ahead of games, no dressing room talks, none of how they behave around the training facilities to help their clubs etc... we have very little information. Its like deciding whether a teacher is good or not without ever seeing them in the class room or interact with people without a dozen cameras shoved in their faces.

Obviously Pep can't be shite because then you won't win as many titles as he has. But it is difficult to compare with managers who never had the same level of quality to work with.

I would like to add though that it can be seen as a skill to make the right career move at the right time. Pep took the Barca job when they had a good organisation in place, people he could trust etc., same when he went to Bayern and later City. I don't think he would have accepted any of those jobs otherwise, whereas some (like Mourinho) appears to be looking at the salary and then making decisions only based on that... which frequently will end in tears (or laughter).

I quite like the idea of a footballing version of parent teacher evening.

but yeah, I mostly agree with what you say.

In a parallel world there is a Guardiola whose first job wasn't Barca. That would be fascinating to see how things would have panned out. My bet is that he would have found his way to the top. I just need to find that parallel universe...

 

[jessiejames]

The lower leagues are great for teams being crap one season and good the next. Cooper took over Forest in the relegation places and in the same season got them promoted. Poyet took over a team in or on the edge of the relegation places and 18 months later we had waltzed our way to the title. It's not some never been done before feat. Maybe it'd take a couple of seasons but he'd do it.



No, he wouldn't win the league next season if he took over Man Utd. He didn't win the league in his first year at city either.

Maybe the Man City youth players aren't of a high enough standard? The majority of his all conquering Barca team were from the Barca academy.

If what he has achieved is so easy, why has no one else done it?

And which teams were playing football the way Barca were before 2008? Which coach has influenced football as much in recent years? I'll say it again, the way that so many teams, at so many levels from youth football up bare the mark of his footballing philosophy makes him the most influential coach this century.

And then I'll leave it there because I don't think we're going to agree and there's probably plenty of people opening the thread expecting to see some news on Cucurella and instead are getting me banging on about Guardiola.

Agree to disagree. ��

 

[Swansman]

I quite like the idea of a footballing version of parent teacher evening.

but yeah, I mostly agree with what you say.

In a parallel world there is a Guardiola whose first job wasn't Barca. That would be fascinating to see how things would have panned out. My bet is that he would have found his way to the top. I just need to find that parallel universe...

Even more so there is a world where where he wasnt a famous, former world class-player. With his drive he would probably still manage to go places, but there is a decent chance it would have to be through a few years in Östersund or some other obscure place.

 

[BBassic]

This debate re Guardiola is too subjective to be definitive. What's undeniable is his style of football has been the leading influence on how the modern game is played. Even our Graham is replicating much of Peps style, high press, tiki taka, possession based football.

There is an organisation, the international federation of football history and statistics who devised an equitable method for determining THE WORLD’S BEST CLUB COACH OF THE DECADE 2011-2020.

Pep came 2nd.

Name Country Points
Diego SIMEONE Argentina 152
Josep GUARDIOLA Spain 144
Jürgen KLOPP Germany 105
Jose MOURINHO Portugal 91
Maximiliano ALLEGRI Italy 77
Unaï EMERY Spain 70
Zinedine ZIDANE France 59
Carlo ANCELOTTI Italy 57
Mauriccio POCHETTINO Argentina 56
Marcelo GALLARDO Argentina 56
Antonio CONTE Italy 53
Claudio RANIERI Italy 36
Alex FERGUSON Scotland 35
Luis ENRIQUE Spain 35
Josef HEYNCKES Germany 34
Ernesto VALVERDE Spain 26
Arsene WENGER France 25
Leonardo JARDIM Portugal 25
Jesse MARSH USA 22
Laurent BLANC France 21

I'm intrigued by this. Do you by any chance have any info on how this is calculated? I had a look on their website and couldn't spot anything. Though it is very hot and my brain is melting.

 

[Johnny RoastBeef]

I'm intrigued by this. Do you by any chance have any info on how this is calculated? I had a look on their website and couldn't spot anything. Though it is very hot and my brain is melting.

Just this

https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/1827188

 

[Swansman]

I'm intrigued by this. Do you by any chance have any info on how this is calculated? I had a look on their website and couldn't spot anything. Though it is very hot and my brain is melting.

It is a vote made by football experts, players etc. who most likely does not exist (see my first response to this list).

 

[Driver8]

This debate re Guardiola is too subjective to be definitive. What's undeniable is his style of football has been the leading influence on how the modern game is played. Even our Graham is replicating much of Peps style, high press, tiki taka, possession based football.

There is an organisation, the international federation of football history and statistics who devised an equitable method for determining THE WORLD’S BEST CLUB COACH OF THE DECADE 2011-2020.

Pep came 2nd.

NameCountryPoints
Diego SIMEONEArgentina152
Josep GUARDIOLASpain144
Jürgen KLOPPGermany105
Jose MOURINHOPortugal91
Maximiliano ALLEGRIItaly77
Unaï EMERYSpain70
Zinedine ZIDANEFrance59
Carlo ANCELOTTIItaly57
Mauriccio POCHETTINOArgentina56
Marcelo GALLARDOArgentina56
Antonio CONTEItaly53
Claudio RANIERIItaly36
Alex FERGUSONScotland35
Luis ENRIQUESpain35
Josef HEYNCKESGermany34
Ernesto VALVERDESpain26
Arsene WENGERFrance25
Leonardo JARDIMPortugal25
Jesse MARSHUSA22
Laurent BLANCFrance21

Must be a mistake, where is Bielsa?

 

[jessiejames]

Intresting, city fans tell us they will walk away if we want to much for Cuku, just like when they sale players the clubs have to meet City valuation, City wanted £35m to £40m for Zinchenko, looks like the deal is done for £30m.

 

[jessiejames]

Thats £77m city have just banked if the Zinchenko move goes through, £70m for Cucu then.

 

[willalbion]

Thats £77m city have just banked if the Zinchenko move goes through, £70m for Cucu then.

£78 million or no deal

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

The more this drags on the more I think he's staying.

Only 6 1/2 more weeks for Man City to pump some more oil to raise the cash to meet the price tag.