[Football] Maradona

[blue-shifted]

I like the thinking.

But I don't think you can use it to compare just to the nearest couple of greats. We're not even sure Messi is better than Ronaldo, and that fact that we have two potential best ever players at the moment doesn't suddenly mean that actually they're both bang average, because neither is better than the other. Compared to Suarez though, they're both the best ever.

So yes, I made the point about statistical blips.

It’s quite possible to compare across eras in statistical sports, for example tennis, snooker or cricket. So for example, you could work out who is better out of Federer and Borg by finding their best ranking position and working out how many more ranking points they have than say, the 20th best at the time. (or you could average it over a period of time)

In football it’s much more subjective. However, with a ton of research and some expert input you could probably reach a consensus on a player who was probably around 20th best at the time (maybe 70% of people ranked them between 15th and 25th best for example. You could then make another subjective assessment on how much better the best player of the era was compared to the 20th ranked person. Or to achieve better objectivity you could carry out an exercise similar to the excellent article posted earlier on this thread comparing number of successful dribbles, goals etc.

 

[blue-shifted]

Salah might be at the next WC, but if he is, he won't achieve a great deal, because his team is shit. George Best was a brilliant player, but didn't even play at a WC. It depends so much on the quality of the team the player is stuck in.

If he doesn't do as well then it's most likely to be because of his team-mates.

Not when it's a team event and you're stuck in a shit team.

The truest of the greats can do it despite being not being in a good team. That’s what places you above the ordinary players

 

[Triggaaar]

The truest of the greats can do it despite being not being in a good team. That’s what places you above the ordinary players

Nonsense. There are great players in several teams. Some teams have a few great players, with decent players filling the remainder of the team. One greatest ever player can't beat all those on his own.

I seems we completely disagree with each other, so not much point arguing further.

 

[Mellotron]

I think it is a fair assumption, that a guy who was massively better than his peers at the time, would if born into a different era, still stand out amongst his (new) peers.

Fair comment. But all we can do is go on the evidence presented in front of us, and that evidence makes it unfair to compare players from past eras to now, as the entire game is far advanced now in technique, fitness etc. Practically a different sport when you look at some of those old pitches.

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

The truest of the greats can do it despite being not being in a good team. That’s what places you above the ordinary players

That's nonsense.

The greatest player may well be born in, let's say, Kuwait.

He may be the most talented, phenomenal footballing talent the world has ever seen.

He almost certainly will achieve naff all on the international stage because the other 10 players are footballing numpties. That's not, in any way, a measure of his single ability.

 

[*Gullsworth*]

Best was as good, but because he played for NI, he never got the chance on the world stage. He certainly made a difference at the European Cup. He didn't fall over when challenged, skipping past players, and certainly didn't have to hand ball a goal.

I am in the George Best team.

Maybe Ronaldo and Messi are better today, and they are truly two of the greatest players to kick a football, Pele arguably was a better player as a presence in the team and at world class level, likewise Maradona but for sheer skill and ability to beat 4,5, even six players ........Best was the Best. What a lot of people do not realise he was also a very good defender and a lot of his attacking ability was created by his ability to win the ball back in his own half. Best will always be The Best for me, just watch that video, I was hooked when I witnessed in the flesh a Best hat trick at The Dell. Truly a magical player, opinions are opinions and I wouldn't disagree with anyone who said either Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona, or Pele was the best player in the world but for me it will always be Georgie Best.

 

[seagulls4ever]

I think it is a fair assumption, that a guy who was massively better than his peers at the time, would if born into a different era, still stand out amongst his (new) peers.

I don't think that's a fair assumption. Completely different conditions now. It depends how good he actually was, and how much he could have improved from that level to be able to be considered one of the best in the current era. Loads of players seem to have huge potential when they are young, but then hit a ceiling from which they cannot really improve. We'll never know. But Ronaldo and Messi have got to the highest level ever, in the hardest era, and for me that makes them the best.

 

[Triggaaar]

But Ronaldo and Messi have got to the highest level ever, in the hardest era, and for me that makes them the best.

Any idea how we work out which is the best of the two of them?

 

[seagulls4ever]

Any idea how we work out which is the best of the two of them?

Valid arguments for both but I can't separate them!

 

[HHGull]

15 pages and no-one’s mentioned Ryan Harley?

 

[blue-shifted]

That's nonsense.

The greatest player may well be born in, let's say, Kuwait.

He may be the most talented, phenomenal footballing talent the world has ever seen.

He almost certainly will achieve naff all on the international stage because the other 10 players are footballing numpties. That's not, in any way, a measure of his single ability.

Talent and greatness are different things though. We're talking about greatness. So this Kuwaiti player. how would you know he was the greatest of all time? You could never really know and he would, unfortunately, lose his claim to be the greatest ever.

To get the greatest of all time sort of acclaim, rather than being the most talented, you surely need to pass certain tests, for example ....

Are you recognised as the best of your era?
Have you performed well when when under the greatest pressure?
Have you performed at the most prestigious events?
Have you achieved despite adversity?
Can you do it consistently over time? (Messi clearly has)

George Best and Messi are in the same situation. When it comes to putting Southampton or Osasuna to the sword, they look mightily impressive, but best ever? Too many unanswered questions for me.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Johan Cruyff is up there with the very best that ever played and with his coach Michels permanently changed football for the better.

Very, very good point....

Still in Team Pele though.....


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[One Teddy Maybank]

I've never seen Pele on Sky Sports. I base my opinion on his World cup appearances. Gordon Banks was rightly judged on his brillaint save, so Pele is judged on his brilliant world cup appearances.

Spot on....


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[Raleigh Chopper]

I can ask my dog who she thinks is best if you like. If you haven't watched much of them playing throughout the years, then you can't (seriously) comment on who is the best.

Pointless asking her, she will go for Didier Dogba.

Or Harry Kane-ine.

 

[LVGull]

Is he really that bad? He's an idiot who's destroying his life with drink and drugs. Does he do much to harm anyone but himself (I have no idea)?

Are you fishing??

 

[Bold Seagull]

I am in the George Best team.

Maybe Ronaldo and Messi are better today, and they are truly two of the greatest players to kick a football, Pele arguably was a better player as a presence in the team and at world class level, likewise Maradona but for sheer skill and ability to beat 4,5, even six players ........Best was the Best. What a lot of people do not realise he was also a very good defender and a lot of his attacking ability was created by his ability to win the ball back in his own half. Best will always be The Best for me, just watch that video, I was hooked when I witnessed in the flesh a Best hat trick at The Dell. Truly a magical player, opinions are opinions and I wouldn't disagree with anyone who said either Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona, or Pele was the best player in the world but for me it will always be Georgie Best.

The goal v Chelsea on 28secs one of my all time favourite goals. Harris tries to break his legs coming in full blooded with no other intention but to take Best down, and catches him full on his right leg, somehow Best just rides it, it is an incredible show of balance and strength. He then rounds the keeper and slots home like its nothing. Sums up Best that goal, his strength and balance as well as his outrageous skill.

 

[Triggaaar]

Are you fishing??

Nope. If he's been an awful person towards others over the years, I'm sorry, I just didn't know.

 

[LVGull]

Nope. If he's been an awful person towards others over the years, I'm sorry, I just didn't know.

It’s ok I’m not offended. He’s just a c**t of the highest order.

 

[Triggaaar]

It’s ok I’m not offended. He’s just a c**t of the highest order.

What has he done wrong? No need to give the full list, maybe just the worst 3 things you can think of.

 

[Ron Manager]