Man Utd & Moyes getting BOOED

[Green Cross Code Man]

It's easy to figure, as you put it. SAF wasn't given the funds to compete with Chelsea and City in recent years (RVP purchase aside) so his squad became weaker. Despite this, simply having him as manager was enough to ensure those players delivered everything they are capable of and United continued to win matches/trophies, even though they have not had the best squad in England for some time. Now, you have a mediocre squad that has seriously overachieved in the last two or three years in the hands of an average manager with zero experience of competing at the top end of the table or in Europe. It was always a disastrous appointment. Jose was the only man who could have rebuilt United and kept them winning in the meantime.

Personally I would blame Ferguson. He seems untouchable for some reason in spite of his belligerent and aggressive manner. His team played great football but in my view that was tarnished by his acceptance of cheating on their part. Yes I know most managers are the same.

Looking at the last 10 years only Chelsea, man city and Liverpool, spent more on players (net). Over the past 3 seasons (a suitable period of time to allow for team building) he spent the third highest amount. By that criteria, he cannot use lack of money as an excuse. So yes I blame him for sowing the seeds of failure.

 

[Noldi]

Maybe the refs fault they lost ? It normally is.

 

[joeinbrighton]

You might not like his manner, but that is not a stick to beat him with. I actually think it's part of his appeal and a reason for his success. Nobody messed with Sir Alex's United, whereas Moyes' United are a soft bunch who will roll over for any mid-table side who comes to OT.

There's a lot of truth in that. The last 2 matches United have played at OT v Tottenham and Swansea are matches they would never have lost under Ferguson. Not talking in terms of the opposition, but in terms of the balance of play in both matches. Neither Spurs nor Swansea were exceptional in those matches, Spurs were very disciplined and gave a good performance and Swansea today were well organised and worked hard, but United had opportunities but lacked urgency and were overelaborate. A Ferguson team would have kept going and found a way through in the belief that the chances would come, whereas this season's side seems more prone to conceding late goals.

 

[HawkTheSeagull]

All teams have cycles and can go from unbeatable to also rans nearly over night like Liverpool in the early 90's and then Arsenal in 2004, the trouble with Man U is how they will service their debts in mid table obscurity even the loss today will have hit them financially.

Mentioning their debts is a good point. Should they suffer mid-table obscurity and not qualify for the Champions League, even the Europa League, then the massive reduction of incoming revenue could hit them badly as millions would be lost. Of course with the doing badly, it would hit them in the foreign markets too as kids would rather wear shirts of the top clubs that win everything at the time. With them being hundreds of millions in debt - it may be a bad future.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

You might not like his manner, but that is not a stick to beat him with. I actually think it's part of his appeal and a reason for his success. Nobody messed with Sir Alex's United, whereas Moyes' United are a soft bunch who will roll over for any mid-table side who comes to OT.

In the last five years, United's net spend is around £100m (and £27.5m of that was down to Moyes in the summer). In comparison, Man City's is almost £500m and Chelsea's close to £300m. These are the clubs United expect to compete with and beat, but if they only spend a fraction of what their rivals spend year after year then it is inevitable they will fall behind at some point. That's all that has happened. They are paying the price for several years of underinvestment, and this punishment is coming now only because SAF's brilliance delayed it for a final year or two before he retired.

Also, I keep saying this, but please remember that SAF won the league last season, despite having only the third biggest budget. Had he left United on the back of two or three poor years then by all means blame him for their predicament, but he actually handed over a championship winning side so to say he sowed the seeds of failure when he was lifting the EPL trophy in May is ridiculous in my opinion.

I think as you rightly say Alex Ferguson did well over the last few years compared to Chelsea and city. However, he had stability on his side, and many of their buys were poor. Poorer purchases on their part shouldn't justify your argument that he achieved some kind of miracle. Chelsea and city have had several managers in that time, this inevitably leads to greater player turnover. I am old enough to remember the 70's and 80's, a period in which United won little and certainly didn't achieve success in the league. This was in spite of their larger budget. Having more money can help but it is no substitute for consistency and a winning culture.

 

[red star portslade]

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[beorhthelm]

There's a lot of truth in that. The last 2 matches United have played at OT v Tottenham and Swansea are matches they would never have lost under Ferguson.

er, except they lost at home to Spurs last season (and only got 4 points off Swansea). they shipped alot of goals as i recall, really only making it due to RVP (who can score from nothing) and the other top teams not getting their shit togeher fo various reasons. i have no doubt that they would still have struggled to keep up with Arsenal/Man City/Chelsea this season with the players they have.

 

[joeinbrighton]

er, except they lost at home to Spurs last season, and only got 4 points off Swansea.

I wasn't referring to the opposition they were playing, but the actual patterns of the matches. The match against Spurs last season, they were completely outplayed in the 1st half and Gareth Bale ran Rio Ferdinand ragged. They played better in the 2nd half, but left themselves too much to do. The game against Spurs a few days ago was a fairly even match in terms of the balance of play, United in fact had almost double the number of shots to Spurs but there was absolutely no urgency to their play until they were 2-0 down. There was still 20 minutes to play when they eventually did score and they dominated the last 20 minutes, but rarely showed the conviction needed to look like they could fashion an equaliser against a very stoic Spurs defence, albeit there was the incident where Lloris took Ashley Young out and they should have had a penalty.

The match with Swansea today was a pretty even match, United had spells of possession, Swansea had spells on the break. But the final ball from both teams were generally disappointing. When they played last season, Swansea in fact outplayed United at times in the match at Old Trafford, they played a lot better that day and lost than they did today when they won. That's the point I'm making, Ferguson's United just seemed to find breakthroughs in close matches at Old Trafford that they were sometimes struggling in, whereas this season, they are more likely to lose those types of matches due to their own profligacy. Fabio's stupidity today didn't help them either.

 

[Guerrero]

Fergie sure knew when to get out and drop someone else in it.

 

[red star portslade]

Maybe the refs fault they lost ? It normally is.

The aura of invincibility that surrounded that club for a couple of decades has evaporated in the space of six months. The best example of this is referees, who previously, when making split second decisions would, more often than not, favour united due in no small part to the looming presence of Ferguson. Now, possibly harbouring subconscious feelings of resentment about being imposed upon by him, they seem to be going the opposite way. Once a bully loses its air of invincibility they don't tend to be treated too charitably by those who have suffered at their hands.

This really does have a decline of an Empire feel about it and the best thing is, like the decline of any other such body in human history, once those wheels start turning they are almost impossible to stop.

They aren't going away, they're too big a club for that to present a realistic prospect, but their days lording it over the rest of English football are finished and there's a certain poetic beauty about the fact that process this was accelerated by Ferguson's overwhelming desire to go out a winner.

Hope he enjoys his retirement

 

[Guerrero]

A totally selfish ******* is Fergie.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

United are finished for at least the next five years, in my opinion. This isn't just a case of needing a new striker or to rebuild the defence. They have problems in EVERY position on the pitch. They need a whole new team

And you lay NO blame for that, at the feet of the guy who has been in charge for 25 years? Ridiculous.

 

[Guerrero]

They have a falling from the perch of Liverpool proportions coming on.

 

[Husty]

Everyone at the time overlooked the fact that perhaps the reason he had been at Everton so long was simply that no one else wanted him.

 

[Freddie Goodwin.]

I've no real hatred for Man Utd but it was nice to see empty seats and how quickly those loyal Utd fans jumped ship before the end, and we thought that only happened at the Amex!

Or was there really a fire drill?

 

[Weststander]

Maybe the refs fault they lost ? It normally is.

I blame the 4th official. He failed to give enough stoppage time to allow an equaliser.

 

[Guerrero]

Seats emptied quicker than at the Emirates when Arsenal aren't winning.

 

[Bwian]

Mentioning their debts is a good point. Should they suffer mid-table obscurity and not qualify for the Champions League, even the Europa League, then the massive reduction of incoming revenue could hit them badly as millions would be lost. Of course with the doing badly, it would hit them in the foreign markets too as kids would rather wear shirts of the top clubs that win everything at the time. With them being hundreds of millions in debt - it may be a bad future.

We live in hope that they are in a downward spiral that will shut up all of the plastic mancw*nks that have blighted football for years. An 8th place or lower finish for them would be great for football. Unfortunately, the owners will take action soon and replace Moyes.