Malaysian airline crash

[BN9 BHA]

Yeah. It's embarrassing ok. I'm embarrassed. iPads way too easy to be abused as was my Facebook, which is even worse.

Never mind. Saying no more on it now other than apologising,

Arguing with Martyn 20 when you have been drinking, there is more to life believe me

 

[Husty]

Well fought Martyn.

 

[carlzeiss]

Sickening but not really surprising

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/separatist-links-malaysia-airlines-mh17-removed

 

[algie]

That old chestnut!

Great isn't it. To be fair i have used that excuse in the past

 

[Easy 10]

Some of those replies were mine last night, some not. Apologies people. Only just seen some posts after waking this morning,

Just out of interest, could you quote the posts that WEREN'T yours last night ? Just so we can get your argument straight, you understand.

xx

 

[algie]

Just out of interest, could you quote the posts that WEREN'T yours last night ? Just so we can get your argument straight, you understand.

xx

Funny how all the replies he reckons are not his are contained in one thread right?

Now if you found someones IPad and wanted some late friday evening fun then surely you would go mental with spamming most of NSCs sections as well as other bookmarked forums eh?

Tell me i'm not mad in my thinking Dave.

 

[Stoo82]

Rhetoric.

You don't understand the difference between war monger and defence of freedom.

So at that, I shall let you believe whatever you want.

Hitler relied on fear and sheer force by numbers.

In the end, Europe, and the Americans decided enough was enough.

Putin is in that mould.

Feel free to be a conscientious objector to war. People like you and all the other liberal wet wipes were hated by people in WW2.

It's people like you that are a bigger danger to peace than me.

We spent years being Mr nice guy of Europe and now we are being invaded by the EU policies and look where that has got us.

We are in the mire and nobody wants to admit it.

The Americans never declared war on Nazi Germany.

 

[Hyperion]

Just out of interest, could you quote the posts that WEREN'T yours last night ? Just so we can get your argument straight, you understand.

xx

Really? It's embarrassing. I am not going to give you any more ammo. NSC, where an apology is just not enough.

 

[Hillian1]

Really? It's embarrassing. I am not going to give you any more ammo. NSC, where an apology is just not enough.

Well, whoever it was you or somebody else, got totally mullered by [MENTION=25154]martyn20[/MENTION]

 

[Husty]

Really? It's embarrassing. I am not going to give you any more ammo. NSC, where an apology is just not enough.

I didn't see much of an apology, more an attempt to swerve the blame. Just admit you posted some really stupid things rather than trying to say someone else did.

 

[dingodan]

I'm sorry, but can someone explain to me what Putin has done?

I know that the allegation is that the Russian military gave AA weapons to rebels, and those rebels used that hardware to shoot down what they thought was Ukrainian military aircraft, which turned out to be MH17.

If the allegation were true, that would be awful. But obviously shooting down this plane wasn't the intention. If the major crime by Putin here is to equip rebels with heavy weapons, didn't we do the same in Syria & elsewhere? Most of the weapons used by ISIS today are American weapons. If ISIS inadvertently down an airliner with a U.S. made weapon system would everyone blame Obama & be looking to start a war with the U.S.?

I don't like Putin, but this was a tragic accident & the way people are talking he might as well have given the order himself.

 

[Stoo82]

I'm sorry, but can someone explain to me what Putin has done?

I know that the allegation is that the Russian military gave AA weapons to rebels, and those rebels used that hardware to shoot down what they thought was Ukrainian military aircraft, which turned out to be MH17.

If the allegation were true, that would be awful. But obviously shooting down this plane wasn't the intention. If the major crime by Putin here is to equip rebels with heavy weapons, didn't we do the same in Syria & elsewhere? Most of the weapons used by ISIS today are American weapons. If ISIS inadvertently down an airliner with a U.S. made weapon system would everyone blame Obama & be looking to start a war with the U.S.?

I don't like Putin, but this was a tragic accident & the way people are talking he might as well have given the order himself.

Is there ever an 'official story' you believe?

It pretty obvious that the guys running the show in the self-declared 'Donetsk peoples Republic' are from the Russian army. Do you seriously think farmers can fire these kind of weapons?

 

[Hillian1]

I think the footage aired this morning of one of these BUK systems being removed from the area with one of the 4 missiles missing could be damning if it is found to be genuine.

 

[Triggaaar]

Some of those replies were mine last night, some not. Apologies people. Only just seen some posts after waking this morning,

fair play.

To be honest, it wasn't much different to the usual NSC ramblings - the only real difference is that you've offered an explanation, rather than digging your heals in

 

[Husty]

I'm sorry, but can someone explain to me what Putin has done?

I know that the allegation is that the Russian military gave AA weapons to rebels, and those rebels used that hardware to shoot down what they thought was Ukrainian military aircraft, which turned out to be MH17.

If the allegation were true, that would be awful. But obviously shooting down this plane wasn't the intention. If the major crime by Putin here is to equip rebels with heavy weapons, didn't we do the same in Syria & elsewhere? Most of the weapons used by ISIS today are American weapons. If ISIS inadvertently down an airliner with a U.S. made weapon system would everyone blame Obama & be looking to start a war with the U.S.?

I don't like Putin, but this was a tragic accident & the way people are talking he might as well have given the order himself.

I think the issue is that these AA systems don't involve just aiming a cross hair and squeezing a trigger, they involve 4 people on the ground and 2 satellites to fire and it's been widely suggested that it's quite unlikely any random seperatist who has got their hands on this piece of kit has been would be able to use it without a LOT of help from people with training and experience of using them - the russian military. There's a difference between supplying trucks and guns, and supplying advanced air to surface missiles and also providing the training and expertise to use them. ISIS have lots of guns, and a few helicopters sat in a warehouse which they don't actually have the personnel to operate. A far cry from what has happened here.

If you as a nation supply advanced military hardware and also provide either training or already trained personel capable of using it then I think yes you do need to take responsibility. Everyone realises that Putin is fighting a war in eastern ukraine by proxy if not directly.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

I'm sorry, but can someone explain to me what Putin has done?

I know that the allegation is that the Russian military gave AA weapons to rebels, and those rebels used that hardware to shoot down what they thought was Ukrainian military aircraft, which turned out to be MH17.

If the allegation were true, that would be awful. But obviously shooting down this plane wasn't the intention. If the major crime by Putin here is to equip rebels with heavy weapons, didn't we do the same in Syria & elsewhere? Most of the weapons used by ISIS today are American weapons. If ISIS inadvertently down an airliner with a U.S. made weapon system would everyone blame Obama & be looking to start a war with the U.S.?

I don't like Putin, but this was a tragic accident & the way people are talking he might as well have given the order himself.

There are a number of distasteful issues around this incident and most certainly Putin could have taken a more considered position. I suppose it is fairly predictable that he would be firmly entrenched within his own side of the Ukraine conflict - but is stretching it a bit for some to suggest that Putin was personally responsible. Without prejudging the outcome of an investigation the initial information suggests some junior unit in the field who did not fully understand the capability of the weapon system they'd acquired and/or failed to verify whether MH17 was a legitimate target to engage. I suppose there is also the possibility of a wilful act to escalate things at a local level without recognising the consequences.

It seems bizarre to deploy a missile system capable of reaching 70,000ft and still allow commercial flights to overfly the area, while knowing that other aircraft have already been shot down. It would be embarrassing if Putin knew such weapons were available to the 'rebels' but would be surprised if the evidence trail will reach back to him.

On the other hand MH17 (and some - but not all other commercial flights) really should not have been overflying that area in the first place and questions should be asked of the relevant authorities.

This is a tragic set of circumstances that have combined to cause a very avoidable disaster, that will in turn be terrible for the friends and families of the victims to comprehend.

 

[dingodan]

I think the issue is that these AA systems don't involve just aiming a cross hair and squeezing a trigger, they involve 4 people on the ground and 2 satellites to fire and it's been widely suggested that it's quite unlikely[/B] any random seperatist who has got their hands on this piece of kit has been would be able to use it without a LOT of help from people with training and experience of using them - the russian military. There's a difference between supplying trucks and guns, and supplying advanced air to surface missiles and also providing the training and expertise to use them. ISIS have lots of guns, and a few helicopters sat in a warehouse which they don't actually have the personnel to operate. A far cry from what has happened here.

If you as a nation supply advanced military hardware and also provide either training or already trained personel capable of using it then I think yes you do need to take responsibility. Everyone realises that Putin is fighting a war in eastern ukraine by proxy if not directly.

Yes but so are we, we are fighting proxy wars all over the world. & We supply more than trucks and guns, we supply surface to air weapons too, we did going back to the 70's in Afghanistan.

It's people buying into war propaganda that I can't stand, the posturing by the West is always so shameful and it frustrates me when people join in like tools.

Also, things are often widely suggested, that doesn't make them true.

 

[Czechmate]

I think the footage aired this morning of one of these BUK systems being removed from the area with one of the 4 missiles missing could be damning if it is found to be genuine.

It's funny how they see these being removed form the area yet didn't see them entering the country ? they are heavy missiles and machinery and no way would these have gone unnoticed by satellite , media and god knows what else . Also you need more than the rocket launchers to get a direct hit at that height i.e. satellite technology.

It is just unbelievable with some people on NSC and in the newspapers this morning about Putin murdering children , 'killing my sons' etc , there is not one ounce of evidence as yet , if Putin is found to be guilty then I would want the bloke hanged . The papers and some people on here only read the westernised side of the stories and are anti Russia whatever happens , may be because being gay is illegal in Russia ? each country has it's traditions and beliefs and Putin is a very popular man in Russia . If you don't know (because it is never reported on UK news or written in the papers) that the Ukraine Army are killing with rockets and air strikes against Ukrainian people and children , reporters by bullets and so on and so forth , never reported and that 100,000's of Ukrainians have left home to go to Russia to be safe , or if you like it is a form of ethnic cleansing by Ukraine .

Did you also know the Ukrainian air authorities were tracking this plane and asked the pilot to change course and fly lower ? probably not .

 

[Czechmate]

Yes but so are we, we are fighting proxy wars all over the world. & We supply more than trucks and guns, we supply surface to air weapons too, we did going back to the 70's in Afghanistan.

It's people buying into war propaganda that I can't stand, the posturing by the West is always so shameful and it frustrates me when people join in like tools.

Also, things are often widely suggested, that doesn't make them true.

Wasn't Obama trying to obtain big money to help the Ukrainian army with weapons and training ? same thing really as Putin helping the Russian speaking Ukrainians but it's ok for one side but not the other.

 

[readingstockport]

It's funny how they see these being removed form the area yet didn't see them entering the country ? they are heavy missiles and machinery and no way would these have gone unnoticed by satellite , media and god knows what else . Also you need more than the rocket launchers to get a direct hit at that height i.e. satellite technology.

It is just unbelievable with some people on NSC and in the newspapers this morning about Putin murdering children , 'killing my sons' etc , there is not one ounce of evidence as yet , if Putin is found to be guilty then I would want the bloke hanged . The papers and some people on here only read the westernised side of the stories and are anti Russia whatever happens , may be because being gay is illegal in Russia ? each country has it's traditions and beliefs and Putin is a very popular man in Russia . If you don't know (because it is never reported on UK news or written in the papers) that the Ukraine Army are killing with rockets and air strikes against Ukrainian people and children , reporters by bullets and so on and so forth , never reported and that 100,000's of Ukrainians have left home to go to Russia to be safe , or if you like it is a form of ethnic cleansing by Ukraine .

Did you also know the Ukrainian air authorities were tracking this plane and asked the pilot to change course and fly lower ? probably not .

Except of course there is footage apparently showing the launcher being moved into Donetskk hours before the Russian backed murders took place. http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/389683/MH17-Buk-missile-launcher