[News] Major stabbing incident on a bus in Germany - at least 14 wounded.

[The Clamp]

I'll introduce him to you at the Man United game if you desire. Not a convenience he's real.

In the words of Mr. R. Starr "No, yer alright thanks".

 

[Nixonator]

You know what..it's like this.

On my side of this debate we have academic luminaries like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and...the much missed Christopher Hitchens. We also number respected commentators such a Majid Nawaz ,Hirsi Ali and Douglas Murray. ALL of them are frantically trying to make us see where this is all leading.

I'll grant you some unwelcome spadework from Trump and Tommy Robinson...but hey they're entitled to their views too I don't agree with the solutions they propose by the way.

Just try and think for a moment about the consequences for your kids if this madness carries on. Listen to Sam Harris, listen to Douglas Murray...just try before you shout down the message for the sake of a multicultural nirvana that does not exist.

Don't take any notice of me. I'm just a Brighton Fan. I'm not a social commentator or an expert...but I can spot a lie for what it is.

We're being lied to by our leaders on multiculturalism. We need less islam, not more.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali hasn't ever suggested 'less islam'. She wants reform, to separate it from politics and an end to sharia.

Modify the doctrine - change the outlook for future adherents.

 

[cunning fergus]

That fact that you think Albanians started "rolling into" Kosovo 100 years ago shows you know nothing at all about the Balkans. Trying to explain the fall of Yugoslavia and the various conflicts it caused in the way you have has been covered, and shown to naive at best, by the majority of historians. The complexities (and crucially, the uniqueness) of the Balkans in terms of movement of people, ethnicity, religion and nationality/nationalism is covered excellently by Mark Mazower in his book The Balkans: From the End of Byzantium to the Present Day, if you are actually interested then I suggest you take a look.

There you go grasshopper.

I dont need to Grasshopper, because I'm not wrong.

If i had said Ottomans rolling in you would still be in your high horse.

Where i agree with you is that the Balkans have a heavy mix of people from different nations, ethnicities, religions politics etc.

This simmering pot of identity interests, historical greivance, occasional violence and terrorism should be a lesson for those wishing to build diverse societies in previosly homogenous countries.

Diversity is not always strength, it can be weakness, prejudice and profound instability.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

I dont need to Grasshopper, because I'm not wrong.

If i had said Ottomans rolling in you would still be in your high horse.

Where i agree with you is that the Balkans have a heavy mix of people from different nations, ethnicities, religions politics etc.

This simmering pot of identity interests, historical greivance, occasional violence and terrorism should be a lesson for those wishing to build diverse societies in previosly homogenous countries.

Diversity is not always strength, it can be weakness, prejudice and profound instability.

I dind't really want to get into this but your connection between the diversity of Balkan peoples and the weakness of diversity is misguided. Balkan specialists generally believe that Western Imperialist interests stoked much of the nationalism/sectarianism in the peninsula and it was not so much inter-communial violence caused by bottom up hatred of other peoples. This is outlined by Mark Mazower in his book, as the New York Times review below alludes to:

The title of Mark Mazower's book ''The Balkans: A Short History'' sums up its enormous ambitions. In a mere 188 pages, Mazower, a professor of history at Princeton University, attempts to synthesize and simplify 1,000 years of history; dozens of nations and nationalities; and a region's reputation for dizzying complexity and depressing savagery. The book, the latest in Random House's Modern Library Chronicles series, largely achieves its goal. ''The Balkans'' confronts the central question that hovers over a troubled region where Western leaders have grudgingly dispatched thousands of American and European peacekeeping troops. Does the region deserve its reputation for endless ''violence, savagery, primitivism''? Or is there another context in which to place the recent fighting? Mazower's narrative challenges stereotypes and artfully uses quotations from travelers, diplomats and historians to create vivid images of the region's history. The wars that ravaged the Balkans over the last century, he contends, are largely the products of European powers deliberately encouraging nationalist movements to undermine Ottoman rule. At times the text drags, but overall Mazower has created an invaluable resource for anyone hoping to gain an initial understanding of Balkan history.

If you look at cultural, linguistic and religious attitudes of people in the Balkans during both the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires these were (and to a degree still are) remarkably flexible and far less polarised than you make out. In the towns and cities most of the population spoke Greek - even as far north as Romania - and the countryside they spoke either a Slav language or Vlach or Greek or Turkish (some spoke a confusing mix of many languages such as the Sarakatsani). There is also plenty of evidence that people changed religion, often when it suited them, to avoid tax collectors etc and often mixed religions / attended religious festivals of differing faiths. National boarders weren't a thing during the Byzantine or Ottoman Empires, people moved freely and also practiced religion (relatively) freely and much of the time in peace.

All this leads to your prosaic argument that Kosovo was effectively invaded by Albanians "100 years ago" not only factually wrong but also a mute point when trying to confirm your argument that movement of muslim peoples into christian areas creates widespread violence and the creation of new nation states ridiculous, peoples have been moving within the Balkan peninsula for 1000 years and co-habiting relatively peacefully until Wester Powers decided to stoke up tensions for their own gains.

All this of course, has very little do with Germany today and the little we say about your idea of an Islamic Republic of Yorkshire the better

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Why on earth would he mean Peter Hitchens?

Christopher was the anti-religion campaigner. He had contempt for all of them, though he more often spoke out on Islam due to current affairs and the fact it's unequivocally more violent.

Peter Hitchens is a Christian and rarely has much to say about Islam specifically.

Sounds like you rarely, if ever, have listened to either of them for any length of time. Perhaps you should.

Fair point (the proclivities of the Hitchens), although we are getting off the beaten track somewhat. If you google Peter and Islam there are lots of links, whereas Christopher was anti all religion, so I wondered whether the previous poster was referring to the most appropriate source for his new-found perspective.

Either way, and apologies to him, his outburst disturbed and annoyed me in equal measure: reliance on somewhat iconoclastic journalists as the font of best wisdom being only part of it. It is probably best I don't engage with this particular subthread of a thread, and him in particular, any further.

In general, I'm not really into final solutions, or the rabble rousing that lead us up to them. When I was 14, I looked at the emerging racial 'tensions' and swiftly concluded from my lofty position as a priviliged gramar school boy in all-white Hove, that compulsory repatriation would solve everything. Later, I grew up.

I am definitely and utterly not going back to my 14 year old ways, no matter how vehemently people expostulate, wring their hands, quote narcissistic journalists, pompous biologists (Richard Dawkins, incidentally, ended his ranty anti religion series with 'I believe' and I though 'gotcha'), Tommy Robinson or whoever. Having a personal crisis about Islam is just that - a personal crisis. Incomers are always treated with suspicion. There is nothing new under the sun. That includes extremism, of every hue, which should be opposed. That said, the level of opposition can range from genocide to tutting. Surprisingly, the most lasting solution is nearer the tutting end of the spectrum. I really don't feel inclined to throw every Muslim into the sea. The idea is absurd. Anyway....cheers.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I dont need to Grasshopper, because I'm not wrong.

If i had said Ottomans rolling in you would still be in your high horse.

Where i agree with you is that the Balkans have a heavy mix of people from different nations, ethnicities, religions politics etc.

This simmering pot of identity interests, historical greivance, occasional violence and terrorism should be a lesson for those wishing to build diverse societies in previosly homogenous countries.

Diversity is not always strength, it can be weakness, prejudice and profound instability.

I personally have little interest in diversity - a mild curiosity about untasted foods and unheard music, but I am not especially interested to submerge myself in it. However...let's pretend for a moment we are playin 'find thesolution' to the fact we have many cultures and ethnicities in the UK. To cut a lot of waffle short, which enthic groups, and back over how many generations of settlement in the uK, do you thing we should compulsorily repatriate? And should individuals be given an exemption if they swear to abandon their historical religion, food preferences, style of dress, and be subsequently tested in an integration examnation, or should we simply expel anyone who looks a bit foreign?

 

[Juan Albion]

I personally have little interest in diversity - a mild curiosity about untasted foods and unheard music, but I am not especially interested to submerge myself in it. However...let's pretend for a moment we are playin 'find thesolution' to the fact we have many cultures and ethnicities in the UK. To cut a lot of waffle short, which enthic groups, and back over how many generations of settlement in the uK, do you thing we should compulsorily repatriate? And should individuals be given an exemption if they swear to abandon their historical religion, food preferences, style of dress, and be subsequently tested in an integration examnation, or should we simply expel anyone who looks a bit foreign?

Britain for the Ancient Britons! Everyone else, out!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Britain for the Ancient Britons! Everyone else, out!

As long as they are worshipful, presumably....

You Christians can be annoyingly facetious when you put your mind to it

 

[Juan Albion]

As long as they are worshipful, presumably....

You Christians can be annoyingly facetious when you put your mind to it

Druids would be very welcome.

 

[cunning fergus]

I dind't really want to get into this but your connection between the diversity of Balkan peoples and the weakness of diversity is misguided. Balkan specialists generally believe that Western Imperialist interests stoked much of the nationalism/sectarianism in the peninsula and it was not so much inter-communial violence caused by bottom up hatred of other peoples. This is outlined by Mark Mazower in his book, as the New York Times review below alludes to:



If you look at cultural, linguistic and religious attitudes of people in the Balkans during both the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires these were (and to a degree still are) remarkably flexible and far less polarised than you make out. In the towns and cities most of the population spoke Greek - even as far north as Romania - and the countryside they spoke either a Slav language or Vlach or Greek or Turkish (some spoke a confusing mix of many languages such as the Sarakatsani). There is also plenty of evidence that people changed religion, often when it suited them, to avoid tax collectors etc and often mixed religions / attended religious festivals of differing faiths. National boarders weren't a thing during the Byzantine or Ottoman Empires, people moved freely and also practiced religion (relatively) freely and much of the time in peace.

All this leads to your prosaic argument that Kosovo was effectively invaded by Albanians "100 years ago" not only factually wrong but also a mute point when trying to confirm your argument that movement of muslim peoples into christian areas creates widespread violence and the creation of new nation states ridiculous, peoples have been moving within the Balkan peninsula for 1000 years and co-habiting relatively peacefully until Wester Powers decided to stoke up tensions for their own gains.

All this of course, has very little do with Germany today and the little we say about your idea of an Islamic Republic of Yorkshire the better

Lovely romantic schmaltzy nonsense.

How did the 1100 year Byzantine empire fall?

Were the Byzantine Christians happy about it?

We know the answer, and this was way way way before “western imperialism” unless you are lumping in the Roman church and their appetite for crusading.

My point about Yorkshire was an example as you know, I could have said Tower Hamlets, Newham, Birmingham etc. The question I asked being the same, are these places closer to having being able to cede from the UK than they were 100 years ago?

You don’t know where we will be in 200 years.........I’m sure the Byzantines never thought Constinople would be the capital city of a vast Muslim empire.

The precedent is there isn’t it?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Lovely romantic schmaltzy nonsense.

How did the 1100 year Byzantine empire fall?

Were the Byzantine Christians happy about it?

We know the answer, and this was way way way before “western imperialism” unless you are lumping in the Roman church and their appetite for crusading.

My point about Yorkshire was an example as you know, I could have said Tower Hamlets, Newham, Birmingham etc. The question I asked being the same, are these places closer to having being able to cede from the UK than they were 100 years ago?

You don’t know where we will be in 200 years.........I’m sure the Byzantines never thought Constinople would be the capital city of a vast Muslim empire.

The precedent is there isn’t it?

It was bollocks yesterday and its bollocks today. And you haven't answered my question (see post above). Stop flirting and say what you really think

 

[cunning fergus]

I personally have little interest in diversity - a mild curiosity about untasted foods and unheard music, but I am not especially interested to submerge myself in it. However...let's pretend for a moment we are playin 'find thesolution' to the fact we have many cultures and ethnicities in the UK. To cut a lot of waffle short, which enthic groups, and back over how many generations of settlement in the uK, do you thing we should compulsorily repatriate? And should individuals be given an exemption if they swear to abandon their historical religion, food preferences, style of dress, and be subsequently tested in an integration examnation, or should we simply expel anyone who looks a bit foreign?

Surely we are only playing “find a solution” if we recognise there is a problem to be solved?

I think much of the rough and tumble on here is between those who think there is no problem, and those that do. One side point to regular Islamic inspired terrorist atrocities in Europe, ongoing Muslim rape gang trials in the U.K. and the growing accommodation of Islamic influence into British institutions whilst Christianity is comparitively abandoned.

The other side say there is no problem.

There’s no point in playing your game unless it’s predicated on the premis that there’s a problem.

 

[cunning fergus]

It was bollocks yesterday and its bollocks today. And you haven't answered my question (see post above). Stop flirting and say what you really think

Awwww bless.

All this swearing too........tut tut, you’ll get a ban if you carry on like this.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Surely we are only playing “find a solution” if we recognise there is a problem to be solved?

I think much of the rough and tumble on here is between those who think there is no problem, and those that do. One side point to regular Islamic inspired terrorist atrocities in Europe, ongoing Muslim rape gang trials in the U.K. and the growing accommodation of Islamic influence into British institutions whilst Christianity is comparitively abandoned.

The other side say there is no problem.

There’s no point in playing your game unless it’s predicated on the premis that there’s a problem.

Sure. If you think there is no problem, great. So what's with all that guff you have been posting?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Awwww bless.

All this swearing too........tut tut, you’ll get a ban if you carry on like this.

I doubt it.

So back to my previous question, if there is no problem why do you keep posting 'islamoweird' posts?

 

[spence]

Awwww bless.

All this swearing too........tut tut, you’ll get a ban if you carry on like this.

You do know you will end up like Looney........... on his ignore list.

You have been warned!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Surely we are only playing “find a solution” if we recognise there is a problem to be solved?

I think much of the rough and tumble on here is between those who think there is no problem, and those that do. One side point to regular Islamic inspired terrorist atrocities in Europe, ongoing Muslim rape gang trials in the U.K. and the growing accommodation of Islamic influence into British institutions whilst Christianity is comparitively abandoned.

The other side say there is no problem.

There’s no point in playing your game unless it’s predicated on the premis that there’s a problem.

Thinking about the highlighted text again, I think you may have topped the absurd post from yesterday. I think I may have to block you, simply on the grounds that ...no, you clearly wouldn't understand

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You do know you will end up like Looney........... on his ignore list.

You have been warned!

Too late.

 

[Juan Albion]

It would be nice if racists had to self-declare when registering. Then we could all block them.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

Lovely romantic schmaltzy nonsense.

How did the 1100 year Byzantine empire fall?

Were the Byzantine Christians happy about it?

We know the answer, and this was way way way before “western imperialism” unless you are lumping in the Roman church and their appetite for crusading.

My point about Yorkshire was an example as you know, I could have said Tower Hamlets, Newham, Birmingham etc. The question I asked being the same, are these places closer to having being able to cede from the UK than they were 100 years ago?

You don’t know where we will be in 200 years.........I’m sure the Byzantines never thought Constinople would be the capital city of a vast Muslim empire.

The precedent is there isn’t it?

Once again you are confusing political history with social geography, as you did in the initial post I replied to. For that reason, I'm out