Main Coronavirus / Covid-19 Discussion Thread

[clapham_gull]

Well worth getting on the Good Law Project mailing list, the group of solicitors who have a court case on-going over the PPE procurement. Just got this:

The bare facts of what Good Law Project has learned about two contracts awarded to Pharmaceuticals Direct Limited (PDL) are extraordinary. We hold documents evidencing that:

Priti Patel and Boris Johnson’s adviser Munira Mirza pushed the case of two middlemen for PDL with Cabinet Office; the first middleman was Samir Jassal.

He is a Conservative councillor who has been photographed with Boris Johnson (and May and Cameron) and who has personal links to Priti Patel and a string of other high profile Conservative politicians;the second middleman was Surbjit Shergill.

A company he owned went from £200 to almost £10m in value in the year of the pandemic.

Documents leaked to Good Law Project suggest he billed PDL over £16m for his services; the first contract, for IIR face masks, was signed only six days after a direct intervention from Priti Patel – and for a price materially above the average price; the second contract, for ‘Meixin 2016V’ FFP3 face masks, was concluded on 7 July - and only after officials from the political hub of PPE procurement, the Cabinet Office, overruled objections from DHSC that it was overpriced by £50m; another bidder had passed technical assurance – and had even been sent a contract – to supply Meixin 2016Vs at the same time and in meaningfully the same quantity. On 2 July they were told Government had already bought enough of that type of mask.

Five days later Government spent over £100m buying Meixin 2016Vs from PDL.

More details here, but I suspect the press will pick it up tomorrow.

https://goodlawproject.us15.list-ma...73229750da830ac1e4&id=7f0280ed29&e=000bdb706c

 

[clapham_gull]

Don't twist my words please.

I don't want to get vaccinated. There is a risk involved, perhaps even greater than the risk of me getting covid itself. I don't need it, don't want it and have a firm believe that natural immunisation is better than that of a vaccine.

As a result of my decision, I have opted in to NHS research and I carry out a lateral flow test twice a week... which is better to reduce any possible transmission of the virus than a vaccination without any subsequent testing.

That is perfectly your choice, but I think it's a selfish one.

 

[dazzer6666]

If the lateral flow tests have a fairly poor rate of accuracy then the NHS is being incredibly dishonest and possibly making a monumental mistake in distributing hundreds of millions of the things.

According to the sources I've read (googling the things) they are between 92 and 95 per cent accurate. Which would make sense given the NHS's commitment to the things.

Getting away from the point of course (you don’t want to be jabbed....we get it) but those stats relate to symptomatic people tested (so not covering your virtuous bi-weekly lateral flow testing when you have no symptoms). They are much less effective when testing asymptomatic people

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n823

 

[Yoda]

Getting away from the point of course (you don’t want to be jabbed....we get it) but those stats relate to symptomatic people tested (so not covering your virtuous bi-weekly lateral flow testing when you have no symptoms). They are much less effective when testing asymptomatic people

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n823

Wow! You better tell all NHS Staff to stop using them. Have to do them self administered at home twice a week. Let's not forget the most are fully vacced so will most likely be asymptomatic if infected.

Oh, and Care Home Staff too as they are moving onto self administered LFT as we speak. My misses used to get 3 times a week at the home (one PCR, other two LFT) but are now moving to the same as the NHS.

 

[dazzer6666]

Wow! You better tell all NHS Staff to stop using them. Have to do them self administered at home twice a week. Let's not forget the most are fully vacced so will most likely be asymptomatic if infected.

Oh, and Care Home Staff too as they are moving onto self administered LFT as we speak. My misses used to get 3 times a week at the home (one PCR, other two LFT) but are now moving to the same as the NHS.

Why wow ? What’s your point ? That’s a BMJ article, not my opinion.....and I’ve got two kids doing regular tests (one a nurse, one in elite sport). Why should ‘I’ tell anyone ? It’s hardy a secret.

 

[Yoda]

Why wow ? What’s your point ? That’s a BMJ article, not my opinion.....and I’ve got two kids doing regular tests (one a nurse, one in elite sport). Why should ‘I’ tell anyone ? It’s hardy a secret.

If they are that ineffective at producing an accurate test for asymptomatic infection then what's the point in vaccinated people having to take them? Your argument against Mustafa doing an NHS Trail falls flat on it's face if it's good enough for front line workers but not him in a funded trail.

And before you say it, not all of the front line workers are trained in the application of medicine and how to effectively take a sample. Some of us are IT, admin, porters, housekeeping etc.

 

[dazzer6666]

If they are that ineffective at producing an accurate test for asymptomatic infection then what's the point in vaccinated people having to take them? Your argument against Mustafa doing an NHS Trail falls flat on it's face if it's good enough for front line workers but not him in a funded trail.

And before you say it, not all of the front line workers are trained in the application of medicine and how to effectively take a sample. Some of us are IT, admin, porters, housekeeping etc.

I can’t explain that - best you ask the BMJ or the NHS. Lateral flow tests are proven to be not that great at picking up asymptomatic infection.

I don’t think it's down to how it’s done......it’s just that they aren’t overly reliable.

 

[beorhthelm]

If they are that ineffective at producing an accurate test for asymptomatic infection then what's the point in vaccinated people having to take them? Your argument against Mustafa doing an NHS Trail falls flat on it's face if it's good enough for front line workers but not him in a funded trail.

And before you say it, not all of the front line workers are trained in the application of medicine and how to effectively take a sample. Some of us are IT, admin, porters, housekeeping etc.

there's little point to them other than to give people assurance, like a comfort blanket, keep spirits up etc. at great expense. though 50-60% is better than nothing right? and cheaper, more practical than mass PCR.

 

[crodonilson]

Ireland not allowing indoor reopening until 7 July and international travel until 19 July, which will show the folly of our approach to bury our heads in the sand as cases quickly rise and we have leaky borders.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Ireland not allowing indoor reopening until 7 July and international travel until 19 July, which will show the folly of our approach to bury our heads in the sand as cases quickly rise and we have leaky borders.

Taoiseach (Irish PM) Micheál Martin has announced several measures to allow for a further phased reopening of Ireland's society and economy over the summer.
It had already been agreed hotels in the Republic of Ireland can reopen from 2 June, followed by outdoor service at restaurants and pubs from 7 June.

They are weeks behind us in vaccination, so it’s the same sort of time frame as us.

 

[Postman Pat]

there's little point to them other than to give people assurance, like a comfort blanket, keep spirits up etc. at great expense. though 50-60% is better than nothing right? and cheaper, more practical than mass PCR.

Well that depends doesn't it. If 40% of people taking it get a negative result and are actually positive, but think a negative result means they can stop wearing masks, social distance, hug people etc.. and they are they the tests to re-open mass events it could be a disaster.

The MHRA are saying that they didn't approve lateral flow tests for a mass testing initiative and the government need to re-iterate that a negative lateral flow isn't a guarantee of not having Covid.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Slipped out of the news recently......not surprising I guess as things are improving ..which is good!

 

[crodonilson]

Scientists believe 3rd wave us underway and miracle needed to stop it

 

[dsr-burnley]

Scientists believe 3rd wave us underway and miracle needed to stop it

It really astonishes me how there are still scientists who believe that this virus can be controlled by lockdowns. They look all round the world at all the countries that have had significant outbreaks, and they see that none of them have been able to use lockdown to solve the virus problem, and they think we will be different.

It's all very well to say that we should stay in lockdown till we can guarantee that no-one will ever die and no-one will ever become ill. But how long is that going to be?

Incidentally, I think perhaps Martin McKee ought to be asked whether he is still opposed to the re-opening of schools. He doesn't make it clear whether he is saying he was right that schools should stay closed, or whether he was wrong about schools but is right about this, or of course whehter he might be wrong all down the line. Obviously some scientists are right and some are wrong; I think you tend to fall into the trap of assuming that if a particular scientist is miserable, gloomy, and predicts worse things than any other, that he is the one who must be right.

We all know that once certain people have ruined summer, they are going to say that we need to stay locked down over winter because winter is the dangerous time. They shouldn't have to pretend. They aren't going to allow release of lockdown until there have been no known variants for over five weeks and it has been proved beyond doubt that the vaccine is effective against all of them. It's not good enough to say that there have been 3,000 variants so far and the vaccine has worked against all of them so far, because number 3,001 might just be the "Asian Flu" variant and so we should stay locked down until all viruses have been rendered un-mutatable. And if that is never, then better to die in misery than to live a normal live and then die anyway.

Have they yet prodiced a model that says if everyone gets this virus twice there will be 132 million deaths in the UK?

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Scientists believe 3rd wave us underway and miracle needed to stop it

Experts cautioned that any rise in coronavirus hospital admissions could leave the NHS struggling to cope as it battles to clear the huge backlog in non-Covid cases.

So we should now lockdown to help undo the damage done by the first lockdown lol

 

[Billy the Fish]

Sky just had an interview with 3 people

All of which saying we should either go back a step or delay for months.

This is ridiculous now, no balance at all - no one pointing out the flaws to the modelling or the exit wave that was always going to happen etc.

Happening again today, the same two or three voices all over the news saying we should delay opening, no counter information or argument against. It's no wonder people are scared Shi*less all the time.

 

[loz]

Experts cautioned that any rise in coronavirus hospital admissions could leave the NHS struggling to cope as it battles to clear the huge backlog in non-Covid cases.

So we should now lockdown to help undo the damage done by the first lockdown lol

Reminds me of the reasons to go to war with Iraq... didn’t they say something like we are going to war to stop a war or something similar

 

[drew]

Happening again today, the same two or three voices all over the news saying we should delay opening, no counter information or argument against. It's no wonder people are scared Shi*less all the time.

What exactly are the arguments against then other than making money?

 

[drew]

It really astonishes me how there are still scientists who believe that this virus can be controlled by lockdowns. They look all round the world at all the countries that have had significant outbreaks, and they see that none of them have been able to use lockdown to solve the virus problem, and they think we will be different.

It's all very well to say that we should stay in lockdown till we can guarantee that no-one will ever die and no-one will ever become ill. But how long is that going to be?

Incidentally, I think perhaps Martin McKee ought to be asked whether he is still opposed to the re-opening of schools. He doesn't make it clear whether he is saying he was right that schools should stay closed, or whether he was wrong about schools but is right about this, or of course whehter he might be wrong all down the line. Obviously some scientists are right and some are wrong; I think you tend to fall into the trap of assuming that if a particular scientist is miserable, gloomy, and predicts worse things than any other, that he is the one who must be right.

We all know that once certain people have ruined summer, they are going to say that we need to stay locked down over winter because winter is the dangerous time. They shouldn't have to pretend. They aren't going to allow release of lockdown until there have been no known variants for over five weeks and it has been proved beyond doubt that the vaccine is effective against all of them. It's not good enough to say that there have been 3,000 variants so far and the vaccine has worked against all of them so far, because number 3,001 might just be the "Asian Flu" variant and so we should stay locked down until all viruses have been rendered un-mutatable. And if that is never, then better to die in misery than to live a normal live and then die anyway.

Have they yet prodiced a model that says if everyone gets this virus twice there will be 132 million deaths in the UK?

But lockdown is not about eliminating the virus. It is just to ensure the NHS doesn't get inundated.

 

[Poojah]

But lockdown is not about eliminating the virus. It is just to ensure the NHS doesn't get inundated.

I think this is the crux of the matter. Putting to one side the rights and the wrongs of the approach, we have a government which is incredibly reluctant to lock down until such a point it becomes inevitable that the NHS will be toppled if we don’t. I don’t see this being any different, and whilst Patrick Vallance’s comments of last March about infections in the community actually being ‘desirable’ look ill judged in hindsight, I can see how a rise in cases amongst healthy 12 - 30 years olds might potentially be a good thing at this stage.

The big variable right now, that we haven’t had at the outset of any of the previous ‘waves’, is such a high level of vaccinated people amongst our population. If we can unlock on the 21st without overloading the NHS, we will in my opinion. My gut feel is that the 21st might just come a little bit too soon - I can see there being pockets of the country whereby the Indian variant is just too prevalent and I’d be surprised to see more regional restrictions.

That said, the virus is very much facing an uphill battle against vaccinations and with a surge in doses expected in the coming weeks I would expect any postponement will be only around 4 - 8 weeks a the very most. I think anything resembling another lockdown is even more unlikely.