Main Coronavirus / Covid-19 Discussion Thread

[dsr-burnley]

In my view it's a feck up of immense proportions already. For weeks they have known the vaccine was imminent yet there's been no visible preparation. Sites kitted out, volunteers recruited, army and others at the ready.

I can see no valid reason why, when Oxford was approved, that we weren't in a mass programme within 48 hours and operating on a 24x7 basis. Indeed the only sense I get is we're still pissing around with stuff that could and should have been sorted weeks ago.

'Fiddle while Rome burns' doesn't even come close imo

There comes a time when you have to realise that the government isn't at fault for administrative failures. Not directly, anyway, and not in a way that can be immediately solved.

Take PHE. The semi-automomous body, which does not directly report to the Health Secretary, and which is responsible for running the NHS. They have 5,000 employees, as against 1 Heath Secretary. So if Hancock decides as a matter of policy that retired doctors should be asked to volunteer to run the vaccine, and 40,000 volunteers come forward to do this, then Hancock is entitled to expect that PHE will take it from there. It should not be Hancock's job to vet the applicants and put them on the list.

But PHE has collectively decided that being a doctor registered with the GMC is not enough to be trusted to administer a jab. They need 20 other qualifications as well. PHE has decided, quite literally, that someone whose radicalisation training is not up-to-date cannot be allowed to stick a needle into the muscle, a job they have done thousands of times in their career. It is not sufficient to have only one person out of two with radicalisation training; it must be both.

This is lunacy. I don't know whether there is an uber-lunatic running PHE who has deliberately made this decision, in which the solution is simple - get him sacked today and put someone else in charge (preferably army-trained where practicalities are more important that theory); or if PHE is so beaureacratically incompetent that there is no-one who can make that decision, they all have to follow the rules however stupid. Either way, the place is a shambles. When this lot is over, they need to scrap PHE altogether and start again from the bottom.

Remember, the government's job is to determine policy. The government's policy for distributing vaccine is good. It's the way it has been put into practice that stinks, and the practice is done by the all-too-incompetent Civil Service.

 

[macbeth]

3 weeks to flatten the curve to almost a year means a few months to a year isnt that much of unrealistic leap which would make 2 years.

I'm not saying covid will be a thing of the past in two years, it might be, it might not be, it depends on how well we vaccinate.

But this perpetual hellish cycle of lockdown after lockdown and mass economic damage simply isn't tenable. I'm far from a lockdown sceptic, but they only work through the consent of the population, something that, if the gov't were to keep this up for two years, I would imagine would be running a little thin. Especially amongst the libertarians in the Tory party.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I'm not saying covid will be a thing of the past in two years, it might be, it might not be, it depends on how well we vaccinate.

But this perpetual hellish cycle of lockdown after lockdown and mass economic damage simply isn't tenable. I'm far from a lockdown sceptic, but they only work through the consent of the population, something that, if the gov't were to keep this up for two years, I would imagine would be running a little thin. Especially amongst the libertarians in the Tory party.

Sorry, I mean 2 weeks of restrictions/lockdown

I think its clear they dont care what the party thinks on this

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

There comes a time when you have to realise that the government isn't at fault for administrative failures. Not directly, anyway, and not in a way that can be immediately solved.

Take PHE. The semi-automomous body, which does not directly report to the Health Secretary, and which is responsible for running the NHS. They have 5,000 employees, as against 1 Heath Secretary. So if Hancock decides as a matter of policy that retired doctors should be asked to volunteer to run the vaccine, and 40,000 volunteers come forward to do this, then Hancock is entitled to expect that PHE will take it from there. It should not be Hancock's job to vet the applicants and put them on the list.

But PHE has collectively decided that being a doctor registered with the GMC is not enough to be trusted to administer a jab. They need 20 other qualifications as well. PHE has decided, quite literally, that someone whose radicalisation training is not up-to-date cannot be allowed to stick a needle into the muscle, a job they have done thousands of times in their career. It is not sufficient to have only one person out of two with radicalisation training; it must be both.

This is lunacy. I don't know whether there is an uber-lunatic running PHE who has deliberately made this decision, in which the solution is simple - get him sacked today and put someone else in charge (preferably army-trained where practicalities are more important that theory); or if PHE is so beaureacratically incompetent that there is no-one who can make that decision, they all have to follow the rules however stupid. Either way, the place is a shambles. When this lot is over, they need to scrap PHE altogether and start again from the bottom.

Remember, the government's job is to determine policy. The government's policy for distributing vaccine is good. It's the way it has been put into practice that stinks, and the practice is done by the all-too-incompetent Civil Service.

I agree with all of this, did you find it interesting Whitty came out and mentioned a shortage of Vaccines is the issue with the delay - both companies have said its rubbish and the delay is with them, seemed like arse covering by Whitty to me - they have had months to sort this out.

Sports Grounds should have been sourced months ago and the staff been made ready.

 

[Blue3]

you're saying the ministers should predict that which the experts in virology and epidemiology cant and didnt predict. or saying they should take a worse case scenario approach, which some would like (lock down for months or years). see how many other countries predicted and prepared for this. none did, hence a knee-jerk close the border from France and two days to decide on a response.

There are several studies that were published between June and September 2020 that undertake covi19 mutation rates and model its future trajectory take a look at Time series prediction of COVID-19 by mutation rate analysis using recurrent neural network-based LSTM model

 

[macbeth]

Sorry, I mean 2 weeks of restrictions/lockdown

I think its clear they dont care what the party thinks on this

Obviously neither of us know how this will pan out, but everything is subject to change. The government, whilst they've largely ignored the party so far, have also shown that with a bit of arm bending, they can be coerced into doing just about anything. And of course, public opinion on the lockdowns will probably change the longer they go on.

This is all assuming that the vaccine rollout is a total failure (and I mean TOTAL, not just the government messing it up a bit, like they probably will) and we aren't able to vaccinate the vulnerable, or we encounter an escape mutation of the virus. Two things which, whilst they are possibilities, aren't overly likely imo

 

[Rugrat]

There comes a time when you have to realise that the government isn't at fault for administrative failures. Not directly, anyway, and not in a way that can be immediately solved.

Take PHE. The semi-automomous body, which does not directly report to the Health Secretary, and which is responsible for running the NHS. They have 5,000 employees, as against 1 Heath Secretary. So if Hancock decides as a matter of policy that retired doctors should be asked to volunteer to run the vaccine, and 40,000 volunteers come forward to do this, then Hancock is entitled to expect that PHE will take it from there. It should not be Hancock's job to vet the applicants and put them on the list.

But PHE has collectively decided that being a doctor registered with the GMC is not enough to be trusted to administer a jab. They need 20 other qualifications as well. PHE has decided, quite literally, that someone whose radicalisation training is not up-to-date cannot be allowed to stick a needle into the muscle, a job they have done thousands of times in their career. It is not sufficient to have only one person out of two with radicalisation training; it must be both.

This is lunacy. I don't know whether there is an uber-lunatic running PHE who has deliberately made this decision, in which the solution is simple - get him sacked today and put someone else in charge (preferably army-trained where practicalities are more important that theory); or if PHE is so beaureacratically incompetent that there is no-one who can make that decision, they all have to follow the rules however stupid. Either way, the place is a shambles. When this lot is over, they need to scrap PHE altogether and start again from the bottom.

Remember, the government's job is to determine policy. The government's policy for distributing vaccine is good. It's the way it has been put into practice that stinks, and the practice is done by the all-too-incompetent Civil Service.

You're quite possibly right but wherever the buck stops someone needs to stand up and explain why there aren't armies of people jabbing other peoples arms at this very minute.

It's been a long time since I felt this angry about anything, but when I see one of those patronising politicians/ano's standing in front of a camera talking to me like I've got the common sense of a new born my blood really does boil

 

[beorhthelm]

...or if PHE is so beaureacratically incompetent that there is no-one who can make that decision, they all have to follow the rules however stupid. Either way, the place is a shambles. When this lot is over, they need to scrap PHE altogether and start again from the bottom.

nail on head, its bureaucracy and general civil service empire building/protection. from projects involving PHE and DHSC are full of it, the fact there is two bodies is a problem to start. very odd they mandated requirements that normally arent necessary for vaccinations, or people involved in medical procedures. a suspicion is they have put them in place to prevent land grab of operations from other departments.

 

[Nobby]

There comes a time when you have to realise that the government isn't at fault for administrative failures. Not directly, anyway, and not in a way that can be immediately solved.

Take PHE. The semi-automomous body, which does not directly report to the Health Secretary, and which is responsible for running the NHS. They have 5,000 employees, as against 1 Heath Secretary. So if Hancock decides as a matter of policy that retired doctors should be asked to volunteer to run the vaccine, and 40,000 volunteers come forward to do this, then Hancock is entitled to expect that PHE will take it from there. It should not be Hancock's job to vet the applicants and put them on the list.

But PHE has collectively decided that being a doctor registered with the GMC is not enough to be trusted to administer a jab. They need 20 other qualifications as well. PHE has decided, quite literally, that someone whose radicalisation training is not up-to-date cannot be allowed to stick a needle into the muscle, a job they have done thousands of times in their career. It is not sufficient to have only one person out of two with radicalisation training; it must be both.

This is lunacy. I don't know whether there is an uber-lunatic running PHE who has deliberately made this decision, in which the solution is simple - get him sacked today and put someone else in charge (preferably army-trained where practicalities are more important that theory); or if PHE is so beaureacratically incompetent that there is no-one who can make that decision, they all have to follow the rules however stupid. Either way, the place is a shambles. When this lot is over, they need to scrap PHE altogether and start again from the bottom.

Remember, the government's job is to determine policy. The government's policy for distributing vaccine is good. It's the way it has been put into practice that stinks, and the practice is done by the all-too-incompetent Civil Service.

You don’t think it’s something to do with the fact that Hancock recently scrapped PHE?

 

[darkwolf666]

You're quite possibly right but wherever the buck stops someone needs to stand up and explain why there aren't armies of people jabbing other peoples arms at this very minute.

It's been a long time since I felt this angry about anything, but when I see one of those patronising politicians/ano's standing in front of a camera talking to me like I've got the common sense of a new born my blood really does boil

I found myself shouting at the TV this morning when Boris once again buried his head in the sand “schools are very safe for children” and almost as an after thought “and teaching staff” waffling on about the incidence of children getting seriously ill with COVID is very low (true), yet once again ignoring the question of who they could take the infection home to...

Close schools now, until we at least know what we’re working with...!

 

[atomised]

I found myself shouting at the TV this morning when Boris once again buried his head in the sand “schools are very safe for children” and almost as an after thought “and teaching staff” waffling on about the incidence of children getting seriously ill with COVID is very low (true), yet once again ignoring the question of who they could take the infection home to...

Close schools now, until we at least know what we’re working with...!

I expect to take my 2 to school in the morning but to be told by Wednesday all tier 4 schools closed. In the meantime children are free to bring it home and transmit it

 

[Poojah]

I found myself shouting at the TV this morning when Boris once again buried his head in the sand “schools are very safe for children” and almost as an after thought “and teaching staff” waffling on about the incidence of children getting seriously ill with COVID is very low (true), yet once again ignoring the question of who they could take the infection home to...

Close schools now, until we at least know what we’re working with...!

It’s such an obvious and fundamental point. I appreciate this is a troubling time for politicians and I don’t envy their predicament, but this government’s repeated reluctance to accept uncomfortable facts has already caused untold pain and will only cause more.

My kids will be in school tomorrow, and for what, it’s highly unlikely they’ll be there by the end of the week and then realistically it’s going to be March at the earliest before they return. A ‘circuit breaker’ ain’t going to cut it, though it might have done when advised by experts in September.

But hey ho, maybe it won’t happen. La-la-la-la-la...

 

[dazzer6666]

I expect to take my 2 to school in the morning but to be told by Wednesday all tier 4 schools closed. In the meantime children are free to bring it home and transmit it

It’s madness. Keep them closed - as a minimum until teachers have been vaccinated and the numbers are under some sort of control. Teachers should also be prioritised with front line carers if they are so determined to open schools.

 

[dsr-burnley]

You don’t think it’s something to do with the fact that Hancock recently scrapped PHE?

Doubt it. It still exists. If you're suggesting they might be demotivated because of their forthcoming abolition/merger, then I doubt that as well. But if they are, all the more reason to abolish them.

 

[Nobby]

Doubt it. It still exists. If you're suggesting they might be demotivated because of their forthcoming abolition/merger, then I doubt that as well. But if they are, all the more reason to abolish them.

The problem with governments is that they are run by politicians
Politicians, who in almost all cases, have made their careers out of nothing more than being able to bullshit their way to the top.

Organisations operate on clear messaging and strategy and decisive leadership. The most successful try to ensure that all employees are totally focussed on a common goal which will benefit everyone within the organisation.

Matt Hancock’s experience of actually running an organisation is zero. He has a Philosophy and Economics degree and his only real job was as an economist at the Bank Of England. His family ran a software business. He has zero experience of running any organisation, but he has one of the most important jobs in our country’s recent history.

If you were supposed to be heading up an organisation that was absolutely crucial during a global pandemic, would you disband it?

Seriously?

Seriously?

The last few months at PHE will have been spent working out what jobs people are supposed to be doing in the future, or indeed whether they have a job at all. When all their efforts should have been on saving lives.

The difference between the civil servants and the politicians, is that the civil servants, as in the Health Service, will be working trying to save lives, while the politicians will be working out how to best further their political careers.


It all beggars belief

 

[beorhthelm]

The difference between the civil servants and the politicians, is that the civil servants, as in the Health Service, will be working trying to save lives, while the politicians will be working out how to best further their political careers.

we'd like to think so, but the evidence is usually to the contrary. explain the list of requirements to be a vaccinator (Preventing radicalisation? Safeguarding children for a vaccine not given to children?), or explain the lack of pandemic response strategy (and default policy of sending patients to care homes with DNR note attached). PHE cant even organise a proper system to collect data from few hundred hospital trusts.

the politicans are no better though, as you say looking to the next career move. less than 2 years in post on average i read, barely long enough to understand the portfolio let alone make meaningful change. they dont run anything, they set out a few policy idea, report to the house and plot their political maneuvers, trying not do anything too controversial. few are equipped to actually do much.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/south-africa-covid-variant-more-23255524

Shifting the news to SA. or actual worry?

 

[dsr-burnley]

The problem with governments is that they are run by politicians
Politicians, who in almost all cases, have made their careers out of nothing more than being able to bullshit their way to the top.

Organisations operate on clear messaging and strategy and decisive leadership. The most successful try to ensure that all employees are totally focussed on a common goal which will benefit everyone within the organisation.

Matt Hancock’s experience of actually running an organisation is zero. He has a Philosophy and Economics degree and his only real job was as an economist at the Bank Of England. His family ran a software business. He has zero experience of running any organisation, but he has one of the most important jobs in our country’s recent history.

If you were supposed to be heading up an organisation that was absolutely crucial during a global pandemic, would you disband it?

Seriously?

Seriously?

The last few months at PHE will have been spent working out what jobs people are supposed to be doing in the future, or indeed whether they have a job at all. When all their efforts should have been on saving lives.

The difference between the civil servants and the politicians, is that the civil servants, as in the Health Service, will be working trying to save lives, while the politicians will be working out how to best further their political careers.


It all beggars belief

But Hancock isn't supposed to run the department. Hancock said "get volunteers to do the vaccinations", and it's the civil service head of department (whose job it is to run the place) who has decided that it can't be done because not enough of the volunteers have got their radicalisation certificate.

If a Labour politician had said we want a volunteer vaccination service, would it have worked?

PHE has 5,000 workers, and as the state of preparedness in March shows, not many of them were working on pandemics up to then. That gives them plenty of staff now that other projects are on the back burner. I can't imagine the "child obesity team" is doing much in schools, for example. All is subordinate to coronavirus at the moment, including - one hopes - PHE.

 

[CHAPPERS]

What's the issue with the army here? Surely they have all the required paperwork. There must be hundreds of medics knocking about the country that can be trained quite easily?

Or am I just being silly?

 

[SEWDONIM]

Has any NSC'rs had/have it?

I'm being tested today after having a fever for 2 days. I had the most strangest dream i've ever had last night which i can only assume is a 'fever' dream. Anyone else experienced that?