Main Coronavirus / Covid-19 Discussion Thread

[Bozza]

I'm pretty certain the UK will be in full lockdown by mid November. Which is annoying. My work cancels leave in lockdowns which mean no overtime shifts, which we all rely on. So effectively my pay gets cut down to about 80% but I still have to go in for 14 hour shifts while I watch self employed people do cash in hand work and claim the government grants or people basically having a paid holiday. It's all rather frustrating. That probably sounds selfish. So be it.

I'm not convinced we need lock downs. would be much better to isolate vulnerable people and let the economy and life go on as normal for the majority. Using a steam roller to crack a nut. IMO. I know that is an unpopular view with many.

It's not that it's unpopular, it's simply impractical and unworkable...

1. The vulnerable number 12-15m. Even if essentially imprisoning this number of people was morally acceptable - and it's not - that would be close to a quarter of the population removed from most economic activity. The economy certainly wouldn't "go on as normal" with that massive contraction in demand.

2. The vulnerable can't be isolated. Many of them live with others who come under your "life goes on as normal" part of the plan. Your plan would have the virus running rampant and would be taken home to many of these vulnerable.

3. Tens of millions of low-risk people being exposed to the rampant virus which will happen with "life going on as normal" will equate to a substantial number of sick people requiring hospitalisation and also significant death. Not everyone who is low risk has a good outcome and when you multiple those percentages up across such a large number of people, you get a lot of bad outcomes. For those that don't die, "long Covid" may bring long-term health issues that creates a big drag on the NHS.

I'll be honest - I'm not sold on this just yet.

 

[Bozza]

It's radicalisation. It tends to only be talked about in terms of religion but this is happening all around us and in all strands. Often these people get sucked in by something relatively small fry and then get dragged down by what they find.

Imagine someone (let's call them "Person A") sees something on a Facebook feed shared by a friend along the lines of "Share this picture if you like a nice cup of tea!", so they share it as it seems harmless enough. But at this point the algorithms have picked up that they shared that picture and as such shows them more material from the group who posted that picture (let's call it "Memories of the UK"). So after a while Person A will see more and more material from "Memories of the UK", however this is now starting to take a darker turn.

"Share if you think we should be proud of our Queen!"
"Share if you think they shouldn't ban baa baa black sheep for racism!"
"Share if you never got vaccinated against things and were told to just get on with it!"

Slowly and slowly the person disappears down the rabbit hole as they share these things, and soon they reach the inner circle which is crawling with all sorts of people who in the real world wouldn't get airtime but thrive online (racists, anti-vaxxers, conspiracy theorists etc.). By this time, Person A is in and sees things being said on a group they like, and they start to read it and become indoctrinated in it. Soon they've been sent all sorts of links to dodgy Youtube videos which "prove" Covid-19 doesn't exist, or Jeremy Corbyn eats live children, or Muslims brainwash kids through vaccines, and at that point they're already pre-disposed to agree with the people who post it (after all, they all share the same interest) and at that point it is effectively a religious fervour. By then it's usually too late.

I'm sure I've shared bits of it before, but Sacha Baron Cohen speech at the ADL last year was fantastic and covers much of this:

Think about it. Facebook, YouTube and Google, Twitter and others – they reach billions of people. The algorithms these platforms depend on deliberately amplify the type of content that keeps users engaged – stories that appeal to our baser instincts and that trigger outrage and fear. It’s why YouTube recommended videos by the conspiracist Alex Jones billions of times. It’s why fake news outperforms real news, because studies show that lies spread faster than truth. And it’s no surprise that the greatest propaganda machine in history has spread the oldest conspiracy theory in history – the lie that Jews are somehow dangerous. As one headline put it, “Just Think What Goebbels Could Have Done with Facebook.”

On the internet, everything can appear equally legitimate. Breitbart resembles the BBC. The fictitious Protocols of the Elders of Zion look as valid as an ADL report. And the rantings of a lunatic seem as credible as the findings of a Nobel prize winner. We have lost, it seems, a shared sense of the basic facts upon which democracy depends.​

You can read the full thing here: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/22/sacha-baron-cohen-facebook-propaganda

 

[The Clamp]

It's not that it's unpopular, it's simply impractical and unworkable...

1. The vulnerable number 12-15m. Even if essentially imprisoning this number of people was morally acceptable - and it's not - that would be close to a quarter of the population removed from most economic activity. The economy certainly wouldn't "go on as normal" with that massive contraction in demand.

2. The vulnerable can't be isolated. Many of them live with others who come under your "life goes on as normal" part of the plan. Your plan would have the virus running rampant and would be taken home to many of these vulnerable.

3. Tens of millions of low-risk people being exposed to the rampant virus which will happen with "life going on as normal" will equate to a substantial number of sick people requiring hospitalisation and also significant death. Not everyone who is low risk has a good outcome and when you multiple those percentages up across such a large number of people, you get a lot of bad outcomes. For those that don't die, "long Covid" may bring long-term health issues that creates a big drag on the NHS.

I'll be honest - I'm not sold on this just yet.

There’s certainly no easy answers. Any form of lockdown/isolation tactic will be unpopular with some.

Some tough decisions ahead.

 

[Weststander]

I'm pretty certain the UK will be in full lockdown by mid November. Which is annoying. My work cancels leave in lockdowns which mean no overtime shifts, which we all rely on. So effectively my pay gets cut down to about 80% but I still have to go in for 14 hour shifts while I watch self employed people do cash in hand work and claim the government grants or people basically having a paid holiday. It's all rather frustrating. That probably sounds selfish. So be it.

I'm not convinced we need lock downs. would be much better to isolate vulnerable people and let the economy and life go on as normal for the majority. Using a steam roller to crack a nut. IMO. I know that is an unpopular view with many.

Self employed - if they have a tax history of operating cash in hand, falsely declaring nil or modest profits, they would’ve had no self employed CV19 payouts and won’t be receiving any.

 

[The Clamp]

Self employed - if they have a tax history of operating cash in hand, falsely declaring nil or modest profits, they would’ve had no self employed CV19 payouts and won’t be receiving any.

If they’ve no history of such things they get the grant. Plenty of people going off ticket during lockdowns. Plenty willing to pay cash to get their bathroom/roof etc finished.

 

[Swansman]

I'm sure I've shared bits of it before, but Sacha Baron Cohen speech at the ADL last year was fantastic and covers much of this:

Think about it. Facebook, YouTube and Google, Twitter and others – they reach billions of people. The algorithms these platforms depend on deliberately amplify the type of content that keeps users engaged – stories that appeal to our baser instincts and that trigger outrage and fear. It’s why YouTube recommended videos by the conspiracist Alex Jones billions of times. It’s why fake news outperforms real news, because studies show that lies spread faster than truth. And it’s no surprise that the greatest propaganda machine in history has spread the oldest conspiracy theory in history – the lie that Jews are somehow dangerous. As one headline put it, “Just Think What Goebbels Could Have Done with Facebook.”

On the internet, everything can appear equally legitimate. Breitbart resembles the BBC. The fictitious Protocols of the Elders of Zion look as valid as an ADL report. And the rantings of a lunatic seem as credible as the findings of a Nobel prize winner. We have lost, it seems, a shared sense of the basic facts upon which democracy depends.​

You can read the full thing here: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/22/sacha-baron-cohen-facebook-propaganda

Yes this is what some get fed with in their Facebook feeds. Others get a ton of "info" about how dangerous we conspiracy theorists are etc. Somehow that isnt percieved as an issue: Google, FB and other social media are apparently not that bad when it is your own, establishment friendly feed.

Some people are convinced that Alex Jones is full of truths, others say BBC or The Guardian is.

Its funny that conspiracy theories are seen as a growing thing when its always been massive, just completely hidden to those who didnt look for it. 50 years ago over half of the US population believed the government were hiding information on UFOs and somewhere around the same percentage thought there was more to the JFK murder than the official version implies.

Its not a new phenomenon, the only new thing is that we share the same platforms.

 

[LamieRobertson]

If they’ve no history of such things they get the grant. Plenty of people going off ticket during lockdowns. Plenty willing to pay cash to get their bathroom/roof etc finished.

What Westy is saying is that your SE person who doesn’t play it by the rules is less likely to benefit from any handouts......flipping the coin you do get people who say “what’s the quote for cash”....I used to get asked that a lot years ago and I always said higher with a smile on my face.

 

[Weststander]

Yes this is what some get fed with in their Facebook feeds. Others get a ton of "info" about how dangerous we conspiracy theorists are etc. Somehow that isnt percieved as an issue: Google, FB and other social media are apparently not that bad when it is your own, establishment friendly feed.

Some people are convinced that Alex Jones is full of truths, others say BBC or The Guardian is.

Its funny that conspiracy theories are seen as a growing thing when its always been massive, just completely hidden to those who didnt look for it. 50 years ago over half of the US population believed the government were hiding information on UFOs and somewhere around the same percentage thought there was more to the JFK murder than the official version implies.

Its not a new phenomenon, the only new thing is that we share the same platforms.

Conspiracy theories about Roswell, JFK, the moon landings, etc didn’t affect real lives, health, fuel racism, the breaking of laws or election results.

In the 80’s, 90’s and 00’s I only ever knew one person who believed Icke.

Now countless millions across the world are influenced by bullshitters peddling:

CV19 is no worse than the cold.
The Rothschilds and the Illuminati, Alien lizards, are killing us.
CV19 is a conspiracy to control us.
The Clintons, Clooney & co are murderous paedophiles.
Coronavirus is a fiction invented to cover up the physical damage being done by 5G.
CV19 was planned.
Coronavirus was invented by Microsoft billionaire Bill Gates to control the world by creating a vaccine for it.

 

[atomised]

Got to admit we are now finding it really hard. Like you say, the good weather was a massive bonus and allowed us to spend many days outside, in our garden, in the sunshine.

Things are very different now though. We try and get out for a walk most days and have a nice circuit of about 3km, which takes us round 2 local cemeteries, where we don’t come into contact with anyone. It’s an hour out of the day and helps pass some time away!

For only the second time since mid-March we have ventured out, to a local garden centre, where again we managed to avoid people. My wife, who normally loves shopping hated every minute of it and just wanted us to be back indoors, safe in our sanctuary.

I know much has been made of the mental health of the nation, and I do wonder how we are going to get through this next 6 months as a little family. At the moment we can’t see any end to this living hell.

See, this is where my intense disliking of human interaction comes in handy bit of an issue that I don't like myself either.
I do find I get a lot of bites on social media for suggesting I plan my normal Christmas. I've even had people tell me I'm the problem for thinking so irresponsibily. It seems harsh to question why they believe Christmas on my own is such a massive issue to them

 

[Swansman]

Conspiracy theories about Roswell, JFK, the moon landings, etc didn’t affect real lives, health, fuel racism, the breaking of laws or election results.

In the 80’s, 90’s and 00’s I only ever knew one person who believed Icke.

Now countless millions across the world are influenced by bullshitters peddling:

CV19 is no worse than the cold.
The Rothschilds and the Illuminati, Alien lizards, are killing us.
CV19 is a conspiracy to control us.
The Clintons, Clooney & co are murderous paedophiles.
Coronavirus is a fiction invented to cover up the physical damage being done by 5G.
CV19 was planned.
Coronavirus was invented by Microsoft billionaire Bill Gates to control the world by creating a vaccine for it.

Most conspiracy theories are connected, as the word indicates. Its really just one fat theory: the world is ruled by a group that wants complete control over mankind for one reason or another. This theory has definitely affected the world for a very, very long time. Certainly not as much as the conspiracy itself, but the impact of this theory... enormous.

Perhaps not many listen to Icke - I avoid him myself - but people definitely listen to other conspiracy theorists: bands and musicians like Red Hot Chili Peppers & Michael Jackson, movies made by Oliver Stone and Stanley Kubrick, books written by George Orwell & Dan Brown... and the list never ends really.

You are right that there is millions of us (some things on your list I personally believe to be true) but its "always" been the case, regardless of how many you personally know/knew. We just didnt have anywhere (and in some ways still dont) have a way to express ourselves publicly as media didnt want to lend us the microphone (unless we're batshit crazy obviously, because that serves the purpose of portraying us as lunatics - which is not always the case).

 

[beorhthelm]

Most conspiracy theories are connected, as the word indicates. Its really just one fat theory: the world is ruled by a group that wants complete control over mankind for one reason or another. This theory has definitely affected the world for a very, very long time. Certainly not as much as the conspiracy itself, but the impact of this theory... enormous.

and its bollocks. the conspiracies are contradictory, inconsistent and require a level of coordination and collaboration we simply dont have evidence for. to an end that is always just about to happen but never does. the group that controls us cant control anything.

 

[Swansman]

and its bollocks. the conspiracies are contradictory, inconsistent and require a level of coordination and collaboration we simply dont have evidence for. to an end that is always just about to happen but never does. the group that controls us cant control anything.

I disagree. As you would imagine.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Now countless millions across the world are influenced by bullshitters peddling:

CV19 is no worse than the cold.
The Rothschilds and the Illuminati, Alien lizards, are killing us.
CV19 is a conspiracy to control us.
The Clintons, Clooney & co are murderous paedophiles.
Coronavirus is a fiction invented to cover up the physical damage being done by 5G.
CV19 was planned.
Coronavirus was invented by Microsoft billionaire Bill Gates to control the world by creating a vaccine for it.

Sadly, including one or two on here who should know better.

 

[darkwolf666]

Most conspiracy theories are connected, as the word indicates. Its really just one fat theory: the world is ruled by a group that wants complete control over mankind for one reason or another. This theory has definitely affected the world for a very, very long time. Certainly not as much as the conspiracy itself, but the impact of this theory... enormous.

Perhaps not many listen to Icke - I avoid him myself - but people definitely listen to other conspiracy theorists: bands and musicians like Red Hot Chili Peppers & Michael Jackson, movies made by Oliver Stone and Stanley Kubrick, books written by George Orwell & Dan Brown... and the list never ends really.

You are right that there is millions of us (some things on your list I personally believe to be true) but its "always" been the case, regardless of how many you personally know/knew. We just didnt have anywhere (and in some ways still dont) have a way to express ourselves publicly as media didnt want to lend us the microphone (unless we're batshit crazy obviously, because that serves the purpose of portraying us as lunatics - which is not always the case).

I know English isn’t your first language, but can you please explain how most conspiracy theories are connected, as the word explains. What “word” explains this connection?

 

[A1X]

Conspiracy theories about Roswell, JFK, the moon landings, etc didn’t affect real lives, health, fuel racism, the breaking of laws or election results.

This is 100% the nail on the head.

If you want to believe that Paul McCartney died and they replaced him with a double, and that's why they were dressed in a certain way on the cover of Abbey Road, then knock yourself out, the impact of this is negligible.

But believing that vaccines are evil so you don't get your kids vaccinated against illnesses not only puts them at risk but the vulnerable kids of innocent people who can't get them inoculated for various reasons. Essentially, modern day conspiracy theorists have developed an nastily selfish streak.

 

[Swansman]

I know English isn’t your first language, but can you please explain how most conspiracy theories are connected, as the word explains. What “word” explains this connection?

Well ok its not exactly indicating they are all connected, but the word "conspiracy" refers to a group that... conspire, so while the word in itself doesnt mean that its always the same group, it at least means its a group... not the cleanest explanation - I should get some sleep.

However, in the case of all substantial earthbound conspiracy theories, the same names and organisations turn up over and over again. To those of us diving deep into the rabbit hole there is pretty much a consensus that it is the same group conspiring over and over again. Most of the extremely significant people in fairly recent history, like Marx, Stalin, Hitler etc., have very interesting and intricate connections with eachother and people in the "background". Same goes for significant events and sociatel developments - if you scratch a bit beneath the surface you'll find the same people and organisations benefitting from it over and over again.

 

[beorhthelm]

Well ok its not exactly indicating they are all connected, but the word "conspiracy" refers to a group that... conspire, so while the word in itself doesnt mean that its always the same group, it at least means its a group... not the cleanest explanation - I should get some sleep.

However, in the case of all substantial earthbound conspiracy theories, the same names and organisations turn up over and over again. To those of us diving deep into the rabbit hole there is pretty much a consensus that it is the same group conspiring over and over again. Most of the extremely significant people in fairly recent history, like Marx, Stalin, Hitler etc., have very interesting and intricate connections with eachother and people in the "background". Same goes for significant events and sociatel developments - if you scratch a bit beneath the surface you'll find the same people and organisations benefitting from it over and over again.

exactly what group or people connects Marx and Hitler??

 

[Weststander]

exactly what group or people connects Marx and Hitler??

Fantasists and shit stirrers on Facebook. The traditional term is liars.

 

[WilburySeagull]

Some shielding (up to 5 months I think) through being deemed a vulnerable group by the government, others having "symptoms" and having to self isolate for 2 weeks, including family members having "symptoms" which was the government advice at the time.

You seem to imply that these "symptoms" were imaginary or cooked up. My daughter is a key worker who lives with us in a family of six. She had to have two periods of isolation because other family members did have symptoms. Of course then there was no testing available for us so we still dont no if the symptoms were covid or not.

 

[A1X]

To bring this back a bit more on track, we now have a Covid rate of death comparable to mid-May. Where is the Prime Minister, exactly?