[Football] Liverpool and Manchester United lead ‘European League’ breakout league idea

[origigull]

I read Build a Bonfire when it came out. I don't recall anything about how pitch invasions pushed Archer into selling the club to Knight.

The campaigns were brilliant, especially as a template for others, but Paul Samrah triggering the rule changes that now prevent owners selling grounds with no contingeny is the primary lasting outcome. I'm not convinced even the peaceful protests are what forced Archer out, because he'd sold the Goldstone, and the club he sold to Knight was worthless. He'd got what he wanted. The pitch invasions mostly cost us 3 points.

So will ManU have an extra 3 points deducted as fans of their club halted the game from being played apart from any other sanctions imposed by the PL for the ESL. We shall see.

 

[Weststander]

You trying to give a history lesson to The Henfield One is genuinely one of the funniest things I've ever read on NSC.

Also, your memories of the era are pretty hazy because you stopped going, remember?

Luckily others hung around to carry the fight...

@HWT is actually correct, in that Archer got exactly what he secretly had planned. He made an 8 figure windfall gain on the sale of OUR ground, via the backdoor, in a triangular series of land transactions. He got every penny back of his modest loan and then personally made a fortune beyond our dreams.

The protests were amazing, unprecedented and drew football lovers from across Europe.

What did they achieve? Respect, much love, it was great to make the corrupt trio very uncomfortable in their lives for a while, DK with some other good people took ownership of the remaining asset-less limited company and Football League status for a new beginning.

 

[Weststander]

Local fans got the game called off. That will piss off the foreign television audience and that will hurt the Glaziers. Match going fans won’t co-operate with our clubs being stolen. It’s all good.

How will today hurt the Glazer’s in the only place they care about, their bank balances?

 

[jimhigham]

I read Build a Bonfire when it came out. I don't recall anything about how pitch invasions pushed Archer into selling the club to Knight.

The campaigns were brilliant, especially as a template for others, but Paul Samrah triggering the rule changes that now prevent owners selling grounds with no contingeny is the primary lasting outcome. I'm not convinced even the peaceful protests are what forced Archer out, because he'd sold the Goldstone, and the club he sold to Knight was worthless. He'd got what he wanted. The pitch invasions mostly cost us 3 points.

I’ll begin with the huge caveat that the following is purely supposition. I’ve nothing to back it up. Nobody can know the mind of another, which makes it more or less impossible to know what eventually forced Archer out of the door anyway.

Archer had a long standing business life outside of B&HAFC and the club probably only made him a fraction of his income (albeit a nice one off payday). My suspicion is that he had hoped we would meekly accept the thin gruel we were meted out and that he had not reckoned on the subsequent storm of protest. I remember coming home from the York match* and the pitch invasion was all over the national news. That pitch invasion momentarily made Archer a national name. He did not enjoy being thrust into the limelight and there was the risk of his becoming contaminated in the wider business community.

We will never know the precise effect pitch invasions had but I’m fairly sure it’s more than “none”.

*Fun story. I was working at Heathrow that day. I pleaded with an understanding manager and worked through my breaks for an early finish that allowed me to make it to what was thought to be the final match at The Goldstone. I hared down, not entirely legally, and stepped onto the North East corner, still in my suit at 15:08.

So by my reckoning I got three minutes of that match

 

[portlock seagull]

I read Build a Bonfire when it came out. I don't recall anything about how pitch invasions pushed Archer into selling the club to Knight.

The campaigns were brilliant, especially as a template for others, but Paul Samrah triggering the rule changes that now prevent owners selling grounds with no contingeny is the primary lasting outcome. I'm not convinced even the peaceful protests are what forced Archer out, because he'd sold the Goldstone, and the club he sold to Knight was worthless. He'd got what he wanted. The pitch invasions mostly cost us 3 points.

I have you on ignore and only saw your schooling of Henfield One about our War Years from someone else calling you out for the knobhead you are. It’s why I have you on ignore! As others have said, not being there is why your memory is bad. Thankfully many of us fought the good fight. So stay in your arm chair, grandpa. As you were...in the 90s.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

How will today hurt the Glazer’s in the only place they care about, their bank balances?

Can’t do any harm to that cause, can it ? How does doing bugger all help ?

 

[Weststander]

Can’t do any harm to that cause, can it ? How does doing bugger all help ?

I wish it would harm them, but I see some greedy feckers 4,500 miles away from OT, unperturbed.

Parallels to a very sly cnt living very comfortably in the Lancashire Pennines in the 1990’s. A rich cnt.

 

[El Presidente]

I read Build a Bonfire when it came out. I don't recall anything about how pitch invasions pushed Archer into selling the club to Knight.

The campaigns were brilliant, especially as a template for others, but Paul Samrah triggering the rule changes that now prevent owners selling grounds with no contingeny is the primary lasting outcome. I'm not convinced even the peaceful protests are what forced Archer out, because he'd sold the Goldstone, and the club he sold to Knight was worthless. He'd got what he wanted. The pitch invasions mostly cost us 3 points.

He didn’t get what he wanted. Archer had to write off about £700k of debts owed to him when he left the club.

 

[Guinness Boy]

How will today hurt the Glazer’s in the only place they care about, their bank balances?

Because it will have caused them huge reputational damage and that's something you fight to avoid at all costs in the boardroom. Reputational damage harms your brand, which harms your share price. Hopefully they'll be trading at the square root of **** all tomorrow morning.

But even if they are not, the narrative on Sky - Sky FFS - is now tipping uncontrollably towards "owners who don't understand British football = bad". And this is all because fans of the PL 6 have stood up for themselves and said "enough is enough".

Earlier this season Henry Winter spoke with great conviction on Albion Roar about how much power the fans actually have, and it was in the context of how rubbish the games have been in lockdown with no fans present. The "product" without us fans long term would be unsellable and fan power needs to be here to stay.

Proud of the way United fans put their club on the map for the right reasons this afternoon and still proud every day of our pitch invasions, intimidation and clever protests in the war years. It was needed.

 

[Wozza]

@HWT is actually correct, in that Archer got exactly what he secretly had planned. He made an 8 figure windfall gain on the sale of OUR ground, via the backdoor, in a triangular series of land transactions. He got every penny back of his modest loan and then personally made a fortune beyond our dreams.

The protests were amazing, unprecedented and drew football lovers from across Europe.

What did they achieve? Respect, much love, it was great to make the corrupt trio very uncomfortable in their lives for a while, DK with some other good people took ownership of the remaining asset-less limited company and Football League status for a new beginning.

What did the protests achieve?! Really? They kept the m*ther****ing club alive, that's all!

A few thousand of us showed we cared. That the club was worth saving. We showed the FA, the Football League, Dick Knight and, most of all, each other.

We lost the battle for the Goldstone, but we won hearts and minds, and won the war to save the club.

Every single action mattered in some way - leafleting, marches, boycotts, pitch invasions, visits to Mellor, whatever. All of it.

 

[Henfield One]

MUFC protests

I read Build a Bonfire when it came out. I don't recall anything about how pitch invasions pushed Archer into selling the club to Knight.

The campaigns were brilliant, especially as a template for others, but Paul Samrah triggering the rule changes that now prevent owners selling grounds with no contingeny is the primary lasting outcome. I'm not convinced even the peaceful protests are what forced Archer out, because he'd sold the Goldstone, and the club he sold to Knight was worthless. He'd got what he wanted. The pitch invasions mostly cost us 3 points.

the rule changes that now prevent owners selling grounds with no contingency is the primary lasting outcome. Er very flattering, but to my knowledge this is not in place. I had suggested to Graham Kelly that the FA should put a charge against every league ground in the country - never happened.

 

[Billy the Fish]

@HWT is actually correct, in that Archer got exactly what he secretly had planned. He made an 8 figure windfall gain on the sale of OUR ground, via the backdoor, in a triangular series of land transactions. He got every penny back of his modest loan and then personally made a fortune beyond our dreams.

The protests were amazing, unprecedented and drew football lovers from across Europe.

What did they achieve? Respect, much love, it was great to make the corrupt trio very uncomfortable in their lives for a while, DK with some other good people took ownership of the remaining asset-less limited company and Football League status for a new beginning.

IMHO without the publicity and the protests there's a strong chance DK never makes it to the negotiating table.

 

[Henfield One]

imho without the publicity and the protests there's a strong chance dk never makes it to the negotiating table.

absolutely spot on :

 

[Weststander]

Because it will have caused them huge reputational damage and that's something you fight to avoid at all costs in the boardroom. Reputational damage harms your brand, which harms your share price. Hopefully they'll be trading at the square root of **** all tomorrow morning.

But even if they are not, the narrative on Sky - Sky FFS - is now tipping uncontrollably towards "owners who don't understand British football = bad". And this is all because fans of the PL 6 have stood up for themselves and said "enough is enough".

Earlier this season Henry Winter spoke with great conviction on Albion Roar about how much power the fans actually have, and it was in the context of how rubbish the games have been in lockdown with no fans present. The "product" without us fans long term would be unsellable and fan power needs to be here to stay.

Proud of the way United fans put their club on the map for the right reasons this afternoons and still proud every day of our pitch invasions, intimidation and clever protests in the war years. It was needed.

The medium to long term share value of Glazer companies won’t fall because of years of loathing from ManU fans.

Markets will decide.

The Glazer’s keep very quiet, they just keep drawing monies. Making no gaffs that long term harm their investments.

The problem for fans of the the really big clubs is that if fans tear up their season tickets, others on waiting lists snap them up. Looking for reflected glory in an institution buying silverware. They have hundreds of millions of fans in North America and Asia, undaunted by protests on the ground in England. Giving the Glazer’s and Kroenke confidence/arrogance that the noise doesn’t affect them.

I would be interested to see if ManU and Arsenal’s next commercial contracts with their extensive list of ‘partners’ stay as lucrative.

 

[Weststander]

IMHO without the publicity and the protests there's a strong chance DK never makes it to the negotiating table.

A generation ago now, but looking online the big plus was that Archer had to leave £1.4m in the club on handing over to DK in 1997. Later recovering just £0.7m of that.
https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/5135920.fans-celebrate-archers-fall/

Without Samrah, Knight and some others behind the scenes, fans, Archer would’ve put in Jack Sh*t.

 

[Weststander]

What did the protests achieve?! Really? They kept the m*ther****ing club alive, that's all!

A few thousand of us showed we cared. That the club was worth saving. We showed the FA, the Football League, Dick Knight and, most of all, each other.

We lost the battle for the Goldstone, but we won hearts and minds, and won the war to save the club.

Every single action mattered in some way - leafleting, marches, boycotts, pitch invasions, visits to Mellor, whatever. All of it.

Hearts and minds .... in effect I said that. I also said that the limited company and Football League status survived as a result.

No need to remind me of the methods. The peaceful stuff was expertly orchestrated by an advertising guru and fans groups. The other stuff by the hoardes.

I was gutted that Archer surreptitiously made an astonishing fortune, on a club he never supported. The unacceptable face of capitalism, he added to his fortune, way beyond the risk he took in lending some cash when he took over from Sizen and Bedson. His masterplan of selling the historic ground for retail, came off.

 

[herecomesaregular]

Very good questions.

I would however like to rephrase them. Do you think the pitch invasions (and the points deductions) were necessary for forcing Archer to sell the club to Knight?

I was there for the York game and found it to be peculiar, and the destruction of the goal post seemed inappropriate. The game had been stopped. What did pictures in the press of people gleefully smashing their own club's belongings do to favour the outcome?

While I await clarity from someone who knows what went on, and how the pitch invasions really did push Archer into a fire sale, I thought I'd see if I could find any explanation of the sale and particularly the pivotal role of the pitch invasions online. I did find some very interesting links that would be of value to the ManU supporters who are planning direct action:

https://thegoldstonewrap.com/tag/bill-archer/

My take is Archer sold the ground, got what he wanted (money) then sold the club (which was by then just a 'franchise' playing in Gillingham with no physical assets other than the players) to whoever was prepared to pay what he wanted.

I therefore fail to see any evidence that the pitch invasions were pivotal in wresting the club away from Archer.

Likewise, protests against the Glazers will not force the Glazers to sell. If ManU are thrown out of the EPL and the franchise loses income the Glazers may sell, but this won't happen in response to fans causing the threatened mayhem. Not even if they disrupt every game. The Glazers are not criminally responsible for the actions of ManU fans.

I heard a bloke (my age) on radio5 saying how he supports the protests today and that he stopped watching ManU in 2005 when the Glazers took over. He also spoke about how great it is to let off flares at the football. I just thought 'ok mate, I have important things to do today and no time to listen to armchair revolutionaries'.

All that said, I have no idea how to get the Glazers out but if I were a Man U supporter I would feel about one percent as upset about the state of my club as I was, as a Brighton supporter, when Archer sold the Goldstone. FFS. And people couldn't even stop that. How do you sever the Glazers' income from their ownership of ManU? That's the only game in town and, as I said, once Archer had maximised his income from his ownership of our club, he ****ed off leaving us with a mountain to climb. The key bit here is money. That's all.

I don't know what the solution is, but shitting on your own lawn (metaphorically) doesn't seem to be wise, no matter how big a buzz you might get from it.

Oh dear.

I was at both York games and I remember thinking that the direct action was a fantastic statement and that it would surely impact on Archer's position. Imo it did in the end, amongst all the other activities of the time.

I don't believe there was violence or injury at the York game (?), to our credit, and while agreeing with the fans actions today I'm saddened to hear of injuries to the police.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Oh dear.

I was at both York games and I remember thinking that the direct action was a fantastic statement and that it would surely impact on Archer's position. Imo it did in the end, amongst all the other activities of the time.

I don't believe there was violence or injury at the York game (?), to our credit, and while agreeing with the fans actions today I'm saddened to hear of injuries to the police.

The first York game is one of my proudest moments as a football fan and also one of my most unforgettable ones. I honestly think we saved the club that day.

 

[Kneon Light]

Nothing but admiration for the majority of football fans that took a stand today.
Nothing but contempt for the absolute ***** that attacked the police hospitalizing two of them. As well as just being a hideous thing to do it gives the media the chance to paint all of the protesters as hooligans rather than caring passionate fans.

 

[Kneon Light]

What did the protests achieve?! Really? They kept the m*ther****ing club alive, that's all!

A few thousand of us showed we cared. That the club was worth saving. We showed the FA, the Football League, Dick Knight and, most of all, each other.

We lost the battle for the Goldstone, but we won hearts and minds, and won the war to save the club.

Every single action mattered in some way - leafleting, marches, boycotts, pitch invasions, visits to Mellor, whatever. All of it.

Sounds like a Monty Python sketch:

What did the protests ever do for us?

They saved the club.

Yeah but apart from saving the club what else did the protests do for us?

They were the tipping point that bought Dick Knight into our club.

Yeah but apart......

You get the idea!