[Other Sport] Lewis Hamilton the greatest living British sportsman?

[Icy Gull]

I don't dismiss F1 as a sport, but you'd have to concede that unless everyone drove an identical car, serviced by the same crew, there will be doubts about whether the victories belong to the driver or the vehicle.

As a sports reporter do you use the same arguments and question the player’s quality when the star player in a mediocre team hasn’t won a Champion’s League medal or a PL title?

In fact are there actually any “best ever” players who don’t/didn’t play for a top team?

Flawed argument

 

[MattBackHome]

Hugo Boss made Nazi uniforms. No, really.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-fashion-label-hugo-boss-goes-public-with-nazi-past/a-15414490

Yep, and I for one am not going to use that as a stick with which to beat Lewis Hamilton.

 

[Fignon's Ponytail]

I know she is not a 'sportsman', but the achievements of Rachel Atherton over the last fifteen years, in one of the toughest sports imaginable, are criminally underestimated. To my mind, you don't have to be in a sport that gets enormous media coverage to be considered the greatest.

I guarantee that the majority of people who read this will not even have heard of her.

She has been utterly dominant in Downhill Mountain Biking for over fifteen years, She even had one season when she won every single World Cup race. To watch her is a nerve jangling experience, and I find it incredible that such a successful British sportswoman has never received the kudos she deserves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhTFVa0h9Rk

This 100%. Rachel has been nothing short of phenomenal in the world of women's DH, & Gee hasn't been bad in the mens competitions either!
Would love to give Leogang a go where this was filmed....although I might be just a bit slower than Rach!

Anyone know what happened to "Ratboy" on the WC DH circuit btw? Now he could've been a British LEGEND!

 

[Seasidesage]

Some ridiculous names banded about on here. Greatest ever sportsman = Peter Ward

Next question...

 

[Icy Gull]

Some ridiculous names banded about on here. Greatest ever sportsman = Peter Ward

Next question...

I used to think like that but I have heard that he’s a tight fisted git who fumbles pretending to look for his wallet whilst others pay in the pub so I now longer like him

 

[Seasidesage]

I used to think like that but I have heard that he’s a tight fisted git who fumbles pretending to look for his wallet whilst others pay in the pub so I now longer like him

It would be an honour to buy him a pint as long as he doesn't want a game of pool....

 

[Pembury]

I know she is not a 'sportsman', but the achievements of Rachel Atherton over the last fifteen years, in one of the toughest sports imaginable, are criminally underestimated. To my mind, you don't have to be in a sport that gets enormous media coverage to be considered the greatest.

I guarantee that the majority of people who read this will not even have heard of her.

She has been utterly dominant in Downhill Mountain Biking for over fifteen years, She even had one season when she won every single World Cup race. To watch her is a nerve jangling experience, and I find it incredible that such a successful British sportswoman has never received the kudos she deserves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhTFVa0h9Rk

This is mental. Not the first time I’ve seen her, but it still makes me clench watching these go pro shots. To do it once is amazing, but to continually do it and be the the top of her sport is just something else.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

The tax dodger bit really isn't easily refutable. He's not alone though (see also - Messi).

Other than that I am pretty neutral. I understand he is good guy in how he behaves generally both inside and outside the sport. And I admire his willingness to speak out on BLM.

F1 interests me not at all, but I can still acknowledge the skill, guts and physical requirements involved in winning. I have no doubt he has 'earned' his right to drive the best car, but nonetheless, the fact remains that the equipment (and money) is a significant factor to a degree that is true of very few other sports.

There are so many factors and it's so hard to compare across different sports. At this moment in time, based on a 'broader than just sport' assessment it would be Rashford but Hamilton would have to be in the mix.

It is. Both in fact and as an excuse for disliking him. He is, as someone earlier in the thread pointed out, amongst the top 5000 tax payers in the uk. If he's truly trying to dodge paying tax he's clearly not in the same league at it as he is at driving.

As an excuse for disliking him it's not only misinformed but stupid. Another poster pointed out how much more popular Button is despite his achievements paling into near insignificance when compared to Hamilton's. Guess where Button lives? If people were consistent in their disliking of people or organisations that avoid paying or seek to reduce their tax there'd be a lot of people and organisations ahead of Hamilton on the dislike list.

My point really isn't whether Hamilton is the greatest living British sportsman or not- as we've both mentioned, it's a very difficult thing to do to compare across differing sports- more to point out that Hamilton is bizarrely under appreciated and his achievements belittled for ridiculous reasons.

 

[highflyer]

It is. Both in fact and as an excuse for disliking him. He is, as someone earlier in the thread pointed out, amongst the top 5000 tax payers in the uk. If he's truly trying to dodge paying tax he's clearly not in the same league at it as he is at driving.

As an excuse for disliking him it's not only misinformed but stupid. Another poster pointed out how much more popular Button is despite his achievements paling into near insignificance when compared to Hamilton's. Guess where Button lives? If people were consistent in their disliking of people or organisations that avoid paying or seek to reduce their tax there'd be a lot of people and organisations ahead of Hamilton on the dislike list.

My point really isn't whether Hamilton is the greatest living British sportsman or not- as we've both mentioned, it's a very difficult thing to do to compare across differing sports- more to point out that Hamilton is bizarrely under appreciated and his achievements belittled for ridiculous reasons.

He lives in Monaco, at least in part for tax reasons, and he was caught using a scheme that allowed him to pay less tax on a private jet.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41886607

'To try and get round EU and UK rules banning VAT refunds on aircraft used by private individuals, Hamilton's advisers formed a VAT-registered leasing business on the Isle of Man.

The new company, Stealth (IOM) Limited, leased the jet from Hamilton's British Virgin Islands company, Stealth Aviation Limited, and imported it into the Isle of Man.

It was then leased on to a UK jet management company that provided Hamilton with a crew and other services - and which leased it back to Hamilton and his Guernsey company, BRV Limited'


Whether this behaviour is something to be judged one way or another is up to the individual, but you can't claim it is easily refutable or misinformed when it is documented as having happened. As far as I know the core facts of the case have not been challenged, only that it is (probably) legal.

I have no idea what Hamilton's effective tax rate on his income is. But paying a lot more tax than most people is not the same thing as paying what you should. All it means for certain is that you are very rich.




Anyway, I believe he has sold it, I suspect he regrets what happened and yes, there are a LOT of people ahead of Hamilton in my dislike list.

 

[FatSuperman]

Monaco actually for Hamilton I believe. But yes, hard to admire someone as a British Sportsman when they are living elsewhere for tax purposes.

Spends the vast majority of his time outside the UK. Genuinely has good reason to therefore live in a tax-friendly region. Made the mistake of being honest about this and has been ripped into by the press. Actually in the top-5,000 taxpayers in the UK. There are literally hundreds of individuals far more deserving of our disdain regarding tax dodging than Lewis Hamilton.

He’s human, flawed and I actually much prefer his raw emotion to those robotic alternatives. He’s honest.

 

[LlcoolJ]

I'm not reading pages of this as there were already some grim posts on the first page and it's easy to see where the tone will lead. Suffice to say that the OP clearly has an agenda as he managed to shoe in BLM and the Nazis within a handful of posts. Pretty horrific and obvious stuff.

One of the reasons that Hamilton doesn't get the respect he deserves is because he's black and he speaks his mind. Scares some people.

 

[FatSuperman]

He lives in Monaco, at least in part for tax reasons, and he was caught using a scheme that allowed him to pay less tax on a private jet.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41886607

'To try and get round EU and UK rules banning VAT refunds on aircraft used by private individuals, Hamilton's advisers formed a VAT-registered leasing business on the Isle of Man.

The new company, Stealth (IOM) Limited, leased the jet from Hamilton's British Virgin Islands company, Stealth Aviation Limited, and imported it into the Isle of Man.

It was then leased on to a UK jet management company that provided Hamilton with a crew and other services - and which leased it back to Hamilton and his Guernsey company, BRV Limited'


Whether this behaviour is something to be judged one way or another is up to the individual, but you can't claim it is easily refutable or misinformed when it is documented as having happened. As far as I know the core facts of the case have not been challenged, only that it is (probably) legal.

I have no idea what Hamilton's effective tax rate on his income is. But paying a lot more tax than most people is not the same thing as paying what you should. All it means for certain is that you are very rich.




Anyway, I believe he has sold it, I suspect he regrets what happened and yes, there are a LOT of people ahead of Hamilton in my dislike list.

As mentioned above JENSEN BUTTON lives in Monaco for tax reasons. Why aren’t people using that as a reason hate the white British man?

Lewis’ jet tax dodge was clearly legal, as has been done to death. You don’t think he came up with this bizarre approach? ALL of them are run like this FFS. It is entirely legal and that is not Lewis Hamilton’s fault.

He races in the UK once a season. Why do people think he should pay tax in the UK specifically? I genuinely don’t get peoples attitude toward this shit. Blaming the individual for the tax code.

 

[highflyer]

Spends the vast majority of his time outside the UK. Genuinely has good reason to therefore live in a tax-friendly region. Made the mistake of being honest about this and has been ripped into by the press. Actually in the top-5,000 taxpayers in the UK. There are literally hundreds of individuals far more deserving of our disdain regarding tax dodging than Lewis Hamilton.

He’s human, flawed and I actually much prefer his raw emotion to those robotic alternatives. He’s honest.

See above, I fear I have dug myself in based on one specific aspect, and the desire to win an argument when in reality I agree that there are plenty of positive things to be said about Hamilton and many many others more deserving of distain.

I'll never fully buy the 'only in Monaco for the sunshine' argument, but again, he's certainly not alone.

 

[highflyer]

As mentioned above JENSEN BUTTON lives in Monaco for tax reasons. Why aren’t people using that as a reason hate the white British man?

Lewis’ jet tax dodge was clearly legal, as has been done to death. You don’t think he came up with this bizarre approach? ALL of them are run like this FFS. It is entirely legal and that is not Lewis Hamilton’s fault.

He races in the UK once a season. Why do people think he should pay tax in the UK specifically? I genuinely don’t get peoples attitude toward this shit. Blaming the individual for the tax code.

Taking the individual out of it

'Entirely legal' is rarely the case. Its just what gets said a lot. These types of schemes are operating in a deliberately created grey area and can only be declared 'entirely legal' if and when they have been tested in court. Not sure if this one has.

The tax code is deliberately complex and can be interpreted in different ways. Strangely the richer you are the easier it is to hire people to interpret it to your advantage. So while the tax code is surely flawed, there is still a big element of individual responsibility as to how you choose to use it, when you are rich enough to have the choice.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'm not reading pages of this as there were already some grim posts on the first page and it's easy to see where the tone will lead. Suffice to say that the OP clearly has an agenda as he managed to shoe in BLM and the Nazis within a handful of posts. Pretty horrific and obvious stuff.

One of the reasons that Hamilton doesn't get the respect he deserves is because he's black and he speaks his mind. Scares some people.

Black, has a platform, and speaks his mind. That’s a very scary combination for some.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Taking the individual out of it

I think the whole point is that people aren't.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Did a few years Karting when younger, won a few Club and Regional Championships (Senna, Prost & Mansell all contemporaries, obviously they were a wee bit better than me!).

The essential problem with motor sport is that if your equipment is clearly better than the opposition you will likely win.

My dad had been a TT Racer who prepared his own Bikes and it was clear that the Karts my Older Brother and I raced were simply better prepared & quicker than other peoples (Brother actually became 125 British Champion).

Didn't stop me enjoying winning of course, but emphasised to me that it wasn't particularly down to my talent!

Oh and the finest British Racing Driver is a close call between Sir Stirling Moss and Jim Clark, I think I will go for the latter, just.

I know next to nothing about F1 (and feel free to quote that bit in bold) but seems to me that Lewis Hamilton doesn't get anywhere near the respect he's fully earned. It's that British thing whereby we can only fully celebrate our greatest sporting heroes if they appeared in grainy black'n'white footage from the days when we only had two, or even one, telly channels. It's a bit like endlessly celebrating The War. What gives?

 

[LlcoolJ]

Black, has a platform, and speaks his mind.

The perfect storm for a terrified gammon meltdown.

 

[Pierre the Painter]

It’s not as if he has set up his own Charitable foundation that supports projects where he grew up?

Oh.........

https://www.totalgiving.co.uk/charity/lewis-hamilton-foundation

I'd bet my bottom dollar he contributes less into his charitable foundation than he would pay in taxes if he lived in the country of the flag he proudly waves after winning a Grand prix. It's not personal to Hamilton, there are plenty before him who have picked the most soulless place in the world to reside to keep more of their money.

As an aside I also think in motor sport more than any other sport you need a massive amount of help with the equipment you are given to perform. The team that put together a car that performs so much better than the other cars on practically every circuit deserve every bit as much if not more credit than Hamilton as they make it basically a two horse race every year for the past 4/5 years. The only driver of note I think who would go down as a world class driver of other era's is Alonso who he's actually beaten on level terms.

 

[highflyer]

I think the whole point is that people aren't.

I fear that I've brought an argument about the finer points of historical tax dodging to a racially charged gunfight.

On that basis I'm out!