[Football] Lewis Dunk

[Machiavelli]

I watched the game with a very experienced pro football coach/scout and he attached no blame to Dunk when I asked him about it. Apparently that combination of ball delivery and forward movement is pretty much impossible to defend without just abandoning the offside line and sitting on top of your keeper.

He went on to state the fairly obvious that Dunk is a quite brilliant player in most aspects of his game - with pace added he would be at a Champions League club.

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Agree with this. I've been saying for a while that the two things that are holding him back are a lack of searing pace (he's no slouch, but there are other quicker CBs in the PL with other similar qualities), and his inability to control his head. He's sorted out the latter, he's not going to be able to directly address the former but can learn to adapt to it by just improving his positioning and decision-making. Plenty of the world's best CBs have not blessed with lightning pace. While he might not get to join that company, he's got the potential to get close.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

I think it's fairly obvious that none of us have ever seen an Albion team or individuals as good as this (personally from 65-66) and, as such, it's likely to cause a little confusion.

Unless I've missed something and between the early 50s and mid 60s we had the most amazing group of athletes in the world half way along the Old Shoreham Road

Whoa!

Too early to say.

I would still think the Mullery team that first year in Div 1, would give this team a very close game.

Foster and Suddaby, with Lawrenson in midfield with Horton and Ward and Ray Clarke up front, Stevens/Gregory, Williams, Sully and Ryan is formidable in its own right.

At least in my mind anyway [emoji2]


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[Machiavelli]

Clearly the one big flaw in Dunk's very good game at the moment.
Sadly, the same goes for Duffy as well. They are two big guys and are good headers of the ball and should be sticking like glue to the good headers in the opposition. But over and over again, this season, they keep losing their men in the box and it costs us dear. Sure it was a good ball whipped in by Matic but Dunk should never have let Lukaku get goalside of him. The second goal was an embarrassment. Dunk was caught out of position again and fell over and Duffy, nowhere near the back post was seen chasing the header back into an unguarded net!!! United couldn't believe their luck. Just overcrowd the far post, against small players like Suttner and Matic gets a simple, free header, whilst our two centre backs are like headless chickens.
What the hell is going on at the training ground!!! Time and again this season, teams are scoring headers against us, either from set pieces or from the quick ball whipped in and our centre backs are in no-mans land and not challenging. Its totally different in open play. We are covering, blocking and making life difficult for the opposition. United just waited patiently, twice, to pick us off, from balls whipped in. Simple stuff. They knew our weakness, like everybody else. The list of teams doing the same just goes on and on. Twice a poor WBA did it. Twice an ordinary Huddersfield did it. Everton, Spurs, Chelsea, Liverpool, Leicester etc all did it but nothing seems to change.
Nobody seems to be able to work out whether we are man-marking or zonal marking. Whatever it is, it ain't working and for all our decent approach play last night, once again it showed where we are vulnerable.
Dunk is clearly talented but for all his bravery, his ball carrying and his distribution assets, he will ultimately be judged in how he helps to control and dominate his own penalty area. Like good strikers, centre backs have to have good positional sense. They need to be aware of everything around them. Almost to second guess where the striker will be and where the danger will be. Too many players this season are being allowed a free rein against two big centre halves. We constantly see Dunk and Duffy grabbing desperately at shirts to try and regain position, as quick movement finds them out. Its a big learning curve at this level, as the quality of delivery is so much better and varied. But learn they have to, else savvy teams will continue to exploit.
Time will tell, whether Duffy is the right partner for Dunk. I have my doubts. I believe Duffy's lack of mobility means that Dunk spends too
much time covering for him and this causes uncertainty in the box. Personally, I believe that having Goldson alongside him, will help Dunk more. Goldson is more agile and has better positional sense than Duffy. Our play from the back would be more fluid and I firmly believe there would be more certainty in our own box.

My view is that you're being a tad harsh on Dunk here, although I do recognise that this is a well-crafted argument. I'd also question the timing of this, because (do correct me if I'm wrong on this), yesterday was the first goal we've conceded from a set piece since West Brom, over two months ago, and I don't even think we've let in a headed goal from a cross in that time, like Lukaku's. It's with your last point that I do suspect that you're right. Duffy has been one of our weaker players at this level, and it's precisely his inability to deal with the enhanced quality of delivery combined with cute movement, that constitutes his biggest downfall. But that only suggests that Duffy's shortcomings makes Dunk's life that much more difficult which, in turn, indicates that he's doing even better given the circumstances.

 

[Stat Brother]

My view is that you're being a tad harsh on Dunk here, although I do recognise that this is a well-crafted argument. I'd also question the timing of this, because (do correct me if I'm wrong on this), yesterday was the first goal we've conceded from a set piece since West Brom, over two months ago, and I don't even think we've let in a headed goal from a cross in that time, like Lukaku's. It's with your last point that I do suspect that you're right. Duffy has been one of our weaker players at this level, and it's precisely his inability to deal with the enhanced quality of delivery combined with cute movement, that constitutes his biggest downfall. But that only suggests that Duffy's shortcomings makes Dunk's life that much more difficult which, in turn, indicates that he's doing even better given the circumstances.

I'd love that to be true, even if it does make an entire mockery of one posters day.

 

[Weststander]

Agree with this. I've been saying for a while that the two things that are holding him back are a lack of searing pace (he's no slouch, but there are other quicker CBs in the PL with other similar qualities), and his inability to control his head. He's sorted out the latter, he's not going to be able to directly address the former but can learn to adapt to it by just improving his positioning and decision-making. Plenty of the world's best CBs have not blessed with lightning pace. While he might not get to join that company, he's got the potential to get close.

Quality CB's often lack searing pace. An endless list, which would include: Terry, Carragher, Poyol, Huth, Morgan, Hyppia, Vidic, Bould, Bruce.

Separately, are Tarkowski and Mawson speed merchants?

 

[Icy Gull]

Whoa!

Too early to say.

I would still think the Mullery team that first year in Div 1, would give this team a very close game.

Foster and Suddaby, with Lawrenson in midfield with Horton and Ward and Ray Clarke up front, Stevens/Gregory, Williams, Sully and Ryan is formidable in its own right.

At least in my mind anyway [emoji2]


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I am from that generation too, but I think today’s players at the top level have far better ball skills. That aside I think the tactics and slick interplay of modern players would leave the Albion that first went to the First division dead. We will never know though will we?

What we may be able to agree on is that Lawrenson was a better player than Dunk will ever be?

 

[Machiavelli]

It's almost as if the first season for a player in the premier league is a learning experience. Who would have thought it?

(And I think a lot of our players have learnt an awful lot so far)

Yes, it's almost as if we're twelfth in the table.

 

[Machiavelli]

Might as well end this thread with Dunk being the best centre back in England then and Southgate f..ucking up and no need for Dunk or our coaching staff trying to improve on our defending of crosses.

I'm of the view that the best England CB at present is Stones. I'm watching Maguire at present and, again, he's highly impressive, and Dunk currently doesn't look to be at his level. But he's at least as good as Tarkowski and clearly better than Mawson (I'd really like you or [MENTION=17103]Mo Gosfield[/MENTION] to subject Mawson's performance at the Amex to some analysis -- and both of you are making decent enough points), so deserves to be in the England squad. Both Smalling and Cahill ought to be vying for a place in the WC squad.

 

[dazzer6666]

I'd love that to be true, even if it does make an entire mockery of one posters day.

Well......

Chelsea 0-4 - none from set pieces
Boro 0-1
Southampton 1-1 goal resulted from a free-kick I think ?
West Ham 3-1 - nope, open play
Stoke 1-1 - nope, open play
Coventry 3-1 - nope, open play
Swansea 4-1 - nope, open play
Arsenal 2-1 - nope, open play (originated from a corner I suppose but not really a set piece concession)
Everton 2-0 - nope, both open play

 

[Machiavelli]

Well......

Chelsea 0-4 - none from set pieces
Boro 0-1
Southampton 1-1 goal resulted from a free-kick I think ?
West Ham 3-1 - nope, open play
Stoke 1-1 - nope, open play
Coventry 3-1 - nope, open play
Swansea 4-1 - nope, open play
Arsenal 2-1 - nope, open play (originated from a corner I suppose but not really a set piece concession)
Everton 2-0 - nope, both open play

You're right about the Southampton one, and Dunk was involved in that. I wouldn't blame him for it. Ward-Prowse put the ball in, and he's widely acknowledged as one of the best in the business; it got a deflection off Izquierdo, and Stephens managed to get his touch in ahead of Dunk.

 

[Weststander]

I am from that generation too, but I think today’s players at the top level have far better ball skills. That aside I think the tactics and slick interplay of modern players would leave the Albion that first went to the First division dead. We will never know though will we?

What we may be able to agree on is that Lawrenson was a better player than Dunk will ever be?

True, but in this era, Horton, Foster, Ward, Ryan, would have had football careers from the age of 10 with an army of supporting skills coaches, physiologists, speed training, nutritionalists, sports psychologists. They would probably have risen to the top now.

 

[Stat Brother]

Well......

Chelsea 0-4 - none from set pieces
Boro 0-1
Southampton 1-1 goal resulted from a free-kick I think ?
West Ham 3-1 - nope, open play
Stoke 1-1 - nope, open play
Coventry 3-1 - nope, open play
Swansea 4-1 - nope, open play
Arsenal 2-1 - nope, open play (originated from a corner I suppose but not really a set piece concession)
Everton 2-0 - nope, both open play

It would seem trying to retrain Dunk, after yesterday, would be the equivalent of throwing a baby out with the bathwater!

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

I am from that generation too, but I think today’s players at the top level have far better ball skills. That aside I think the tactics and slick interplay of modern players would leave the Albion that first went to the First division dead. We will never know though will we?

What we may be able to agree on is that Lawrenson was a better player than Dunk will ever be?

But could today’s players cope with a more physical game on poor pitches, arguably they have better touch, because they rarely receive a bad bounce.

Of course all very hypothetical.

I think Foster in his prime 81/82, was at least as good as Dunk, culminating in a World Cup appearance.

Stephens would get in, but would Propper over Horton?



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[severnside gull]

Do the EFL have different rules?
Watching the goal awarded to Leon Clarke for Blades last night which wrongfooted the keeper after a big deflection off Bamba - it was just one of several this weekend which would've been an own goal if the defender's name had been Dunk.
Seems strange.

 

[dazzer6666]

Do the EFL have different rules?
Watching the goal awarded to Leon Clarke for Blades last night which wrongfooted the keeper after a big deflection off Bamba - it was just one of several this weekend which would've been an own goal if the defender's name had been Dunk.
Seems strange.

Usually just a case of whether the original shot was on target or not.......if on target, it’s given to the attacker, off target goes down as an OG I think.

 

[severnside gull]

Usually just a case of whether the original shot was on target or not.......if on target, it’s given to the attacker, off target goes down as an OG I think.

That was my understanding but last night's and, for example, two that went in against Derby on Friday, were heading straight at the keeper and ended up going in the opposite side of the goal.
Own goals by any definition of have thought but apparently not.

 

[dazzer6666]

That was my understanding but last night's and, for example, two that went in against Derby on Friday, were heading straight at the keeper and ended up going in the opposite side of the goal.

Yes - so they were on target ?

 

[severnside gull]

On target maybe but not going in without the deflection which is crazy

 

[seagullwedgee]

Only 3 more chances left to see him play at the Amex.

interkonsento jam farita

 

[Stat Brother]

Another game where the Albion (Dunk) didn't concede from deadball high into the box.

Imagine how good that stat would look if Gary Mabbutt was on the coaching staff.