[Football] Lazio fans in Glasgow

[portlock seagull]

It's not illegal to have right-wing views in any European country.

It's a strange argument to say that Mussolini and Franco were not in the same league as Hitler - both were despotic dictators who terrorised and killed their opponents in their thousands, ruled with an iron fist and made life intolerable for many of the population. It's not a league table - they were vicious tyrants in their own right.

Both aligned themselves to Hitler,and shared may of the Nazi ideologies. Franco compiled a list of Spanish Jews and gave it to the Nazis, Mussolini made laws that stripped away Jewish people's rights, and led to confinement. He declared that the Italians were part of the Arayan 'master race'.

Seeing these Lazio fans, who last season unveiled a massive banner in support of Mussolini in Milan, walking through the streets giving a Fascist salute and singing Fascist songs, sickens me. It cannot be dismissed as tribal-football-fan behaviour.

It’s not at all a ‘strange argument’ unless you really need to dumb things down to be historically inaccurate as you’re suggesting. Why do both democracies have family graves for these despots for example? We may not like their values but part of our problem in this country is that we believe we’re infinitely better or do things better than anywhere else and rather than seek to understand we dismiss or seek to change to our way - bit like when we had an empire to do things the British way.

But yes Hitler really was altogether on a different planet. Sorry, Franco and Mussolini just didn’t come close. Nobody is making a case for condoning their actions. But you cannot lump all of them into the same bracket.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

No wonder monkey chants appear acceptable at Italian football grounds

It’s OK. Someone reckons its just their history and culture. Makes it all right.

 

[Dave the OAP]

I don't quite get your point...what is there to be fair about? That's roughly the equivalent of:

To be fair, Millwall has always been known for having violent fans, so they are only following their club's tradition when they kick my teeth in...

Which is exactly the point, anyone expressing surprise at their behaviour has not followed their reputation for many years now.

Lazio have always been a nasty racist / fascist club.

I have colleagues who live in Rome and they wouldn’t be seen dead at a Rome derby and they are staunch Roma fans.

That was all...but take it as you want

 

[Wardy's twin]

Mussolini was not a Nazi is correct in so much that he was not a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party but he and Franco and other right wing leaders helped support that regime and its actions. They might not have been as bad in terms of numbers killed but they really don't need anyone on here to defend them nor defend the Lazio fans who clearly believe Mussolini was ok.

 

[portlock seagull]

Mussolini was not a Nazi is correct in so much that he was not a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party but he and Franco and other right wing leaders helped support that regime and its actions. They might not have been as bad in terms of numbers killed but they really don't need anyone on here to defend them nor defend the Lazio fans who clearly believe Mussolini was ok.

It’s not defending them it’s just correcting inaccuracies. Christ, some people just can’t handle the truth as Jack famously cried. So typical of today’s polarised opinions too. You’re not allowed to debate, it’s has to be shut down by you’re either with me or against me types like, well, yourself in this instance. Sorry if I’ve upset the pantomime posters on here. Still, Christmas is coming so I’m sure you’ll have plenty of support.

 

[oneillco]

It’s not defending them it’s just correcting inaccuracies. Christ, some people just can’t handle the truth as Jack famously cried. So typical of today’s polarised opinions too. You’re not allowed to debate, it’s has to be shut down by you’re either with me or against me types like, well, yourself in this instance. Sorry if I’ve upset the pantomime posters on here. Still, Christmas is coming so I’m sure you’ll have plenty of support.

WTF are you on about? That doesn't even make sense. Let's make it simple; you think that giving a "Roman" salute is fine parading through a city in Scotland because it's part of Lazio's culture. I would counter-argue that the 60,000 Scots who died in WW2 fighting facism might have a bit of a problem with it.

 

[portlock seagull]

WTF are you on about? That doesn't even make sense. Let's make it simple; you think that giving a "Roman" salute is fine parading through a city in Scotland because it's part of Lazio's culture. I would counter-argue that the 60,000 Scots who died in WW2 fighting facism might have a bit of a problem with it.

I’ll try to explain one last time. You said they were doing Nazi salutes and I pointed out they weren’t, correctly so. And then subsequently, because quite a few on here are incapable of separating the genocidal manic that was Hitler from the Nationalist despots Franco and Mussolini, that Fascism in these countries was quite different by comparison and is still viewed as such by many. Acceptable even. Again, correctly. For fans of Lazio, it’s in their tribal DNA as well. It doesn’t mean I sympathise. It doesn’t mean I condone. Bloody hell, some of you would get the right hump with historians seeking to explain and understand the past. Anyway, I’m sure Glaswegians didn’t get too upset by, it gave them a break from all their sectarian violence for starters. Same bigotry, different roots.

 

[oneillco]

I’ll try to explain one last time. You said they were doing Nazi salutes and I pointed out they weren’t, correctly so. And then subsequently, because quite a few on here are incapable of separating the genocidal manic that was Hitler from the Nationalist despots Franco and Mussolini, that Fascism in these countries was quite different by comparison and is still viewed as such by many. Acceptable even. Again, correctly. For fans of Lazio, it’s in their tribal DNA as well. It doesn’t mean I sympathise. It doesn’t mean I condone. Bloody hell, some of you would get the right hump with historians seeking to explain and understand the past. Anyway, I’m sure Glaswegians didn’t get too upset by, it gave them a break from all their sectarian violence for starters. Same bigotry, different roots.

You see I don’t actually think that you’re a facist; I just think you over-estimate your knowledge and capacity for intellectual reasoning. Everyone is just being mean to you

 

[portlock seagull]

You see I don’t actually think that you’re a facist; I just think you over-estimate your knowledge and capacity for intellectual reasoning. Everyone is just being mean to you

It’s matters not what you think. I know, that’s the important bit. And come on, you’re better than that re:you final sentence. It’s a bit playground don’t you think, especially because not everyone is. It’s just you ducked up on your opening assertions and got rightly corrected / can’t accept that.

 

[Bold Seagull]

‘Nazi salute’ is a ubiquitous term for the now familiar fascist gesture. Of course Lazio fans making the ‘Nazi salute’ doesn’t make them nazis as the Nazi Party no longer exists. Does it connect them to their fascist past, yes. Is it still considered a Nazi salute, yes. This is a matter of semiotics, not literal interpretation.

 

[SollysLeftFoot]

If you seek to understand then it does, yes. If you want to just call then Nazis, wrongly, and remain ignorant then maybe not.

I don't think you understand, though. It's plainly simple, Mussolini wasn't a nice chap. Your subtle attempt to defend Italian fascism shows just how ignorant you are.

 

[Chicken Run]

Well this all escalated quickly.

Yet another thread that descends into members arguing with each other and hurling insults.

You wouldn’t believe that we all support the same team at times when you read a lot of what is posted on this site.

 

[portlock seagull]

I don't think you understand, though. It's plainly simple, Mussolini wasn't a nice chap. Your subtle attempt to defend Italian fascism shows just how ignorant you are.

Idiot. You point out it’s not a Nazi salute and suddenly you’re a fascist - The irony of you calling me ignorant! Your remark is so typical of hyperbole polarised views these days. Depressing. That’s my last word on the matter. Pointless arguing with. I’ll get back to reading my book about the Russian revolution. Obviously that’s makes me a communist too.