Lance Armstrong ends fight against doping charges

[Davemania]

I fully expect it to emerge that the allegations are absolutely true and armstrong undertook WHATEVER means necessary to suceed in his sport.

 

[teaboy]

They have been trying to find him guilty of anything for years.

If they are going to go back through history out the records of anyone that doped there would be no Tour winner in the 70s or 80s. If he was juiced do be it, he was competing against others that were juiced. Just let it lie FFS!

/rant

Having looked at the other riders on the podium with Lance there isn't a single year he stood there with someone WITHOUT a doping violation at some point in their career. Personally I wouldn't strip ANY rider of ANY title, just asterisk the result with "later found guilty of doping violations". How far down the 'results' list do you go before awarding the titles?

 

[martyn20]

Having looked at the other riders on the podium with Lance there isn't a single year he stood there with someone WITHOUT a doping violation at some point in their career. Personally I wouldn't strip ANY rider of ANY title, just asterisk the result with "later found guilty of doping violations". How far down the 'results' list do you go before awarding the titles?

You give it to the guy who came last if he was the only one who didn't cheat. They either do it fairly or not and if they cheated they do not get to keep their titles.

 

[teaboy]

You give it to the guy who came last if he was the only one who didn't cheat. They either do it fairly or not and if they cheated they do not get to keep their titles.

Good luck with that, but where's their podium moment, their financial reward, the big contracts for the rest of their career, the adulation?

It's too late. It's ALWAYS too late once the race is over.

 

[martyn20]

Good luck with that, but where's their podium moment, their financial reward, the big contracts for the rest of their career, the adulation?

It's too late. It's ALWAYS too late once the race is over.

Rubbish, plenty of people have been stripped of their titles in all sorts of sports. If you cheat to forgo your right to titles and any rewards you gained, the fact you got away with it at the time does not protect cheats

 

[chucky1973]

What I don't get is, do they actually have samples from him that have tested positive? Surely he must have given hundreds of samples throughout his career. How come they are only going after him now? From what I have read the USADA were going to get his ex teammates to testify against him (no room for corruption there is there!?). But without the samples these testimonies aren't worth salt.

Seems like this Travis Tygart fella has it in for Armstrong on a personal level.

I thought that they had re tested some of his tests from years ago using current technology and had found evidence, I am sure I read that somewhere?

For what its worth, I think he is innocent and is one of the main reasons why I now love cycling.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Rubbish, plenty of people have been stripped of their titles in all sorts of sports. If you cheat to forgo your right to titles and any rewards you gained, the fact you got away with it at the time does not protect cheats

But the difference is, the evidence being used to do this is all circumstantial. No failed tests.

So, for whatever reason, truthfully or not, you find people willing to stand up and say they know that Lance cheated. You aren't going to find people for the other 100+ riders that finished those tours. So you aren't really doing this the right way. You'd have to then launch a massive and prolonged investigation into the people that came 2nd each year. Then 3rd. Then 4th. Etc.

 

[martyn20]

But the difference is, the evidence being used to do this is all circumstantial. No failed tests.

So, for whatever reason, truthfully or not, you find people willing to stand up and say they know that Lance cheated. You aren't going to find people for the other 100+ riders that finished those tours. So you aren't really doing this the right way. You'd have to then launch a massive and prolonged investigation into the people that came 2nd each year. Then 3rd. Then 4th. Etc.

Whatever evidence they have it must be enough as it's convinced him to give up the fight

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Whatever evidence they have it must be enough as it's convinced him to give up the fight

They are proceeding on testimonies rather than scientific evidence. Personally I am wary of it, but that's a very different debate to this one.

The point is, this has gone on for well over 10 years, and the USADA and members of the press have investigated, interviewed, made deals etc all in the interests of getting people to stand up and testify against Lance. Surely you'd need to then carry out similar investigations against every other tour rider before awarding them stripped titles. But they won't, they have put a ridiculous amount of resources into "catching" one guy.

 

[teaboy]

It's also worth pointing out that the USADA don't actually have the power to strip Lance of anything. They aren't a governing body of the sport, aren't the organisers of the Tour, and CAN'T take anything away. They can ban him. That is all.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

The thing is, he may not have failed tests, but we all know that the users are always a step ahead of the testers. There were drugs in use previously that weren't known about or tested for, masking agents used, and things like EPO/blood doping which wasn't on the radar at that time.

We'll probably never know the truth about all of them, but given how many have been found guilty already, it seems a tad improbable that a man who'd come back from a life threatening condition could suddenly destroy a field full of men who were mostly using every drug & blood enhancing product under the sun.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

It's also worth pointing out that the USADA don't actually have the power to strip Lance of anything. They aren't a governing body of the sport, aren't the organisers of the Tour, and CAN'T take anything away. They can ban him. That is all.

And the UCI are not even remotely in on this.

 

[mreprice]

Having looked at the other riders on the podium with Lance there isn't a single year he stood there with someone WITHOUT a doping violation at some point in their career. Personally I wouldn't strip ANY rider of ANY title, just asterisk the result with "later found guilty of doping violations". How far down the 'results' list do you go before awarding the titles?

For 2005 you have to go down to Cadel Evans in 8th place to find somebody who hasn't been found guilty of doping violations.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

The thing is, he may not have failed tests, but we all know that the users are always a step ahead of the testers. There were drugs in use previously that weren't known about or tested for, masking agents used, and things like EPO/blood doping which wasn't on the radar at that time.

We'll probably never know the truth about all of them, but given how many have been found guilty already, it seems a tad improbable that a man who'd come back from a life threatening condition could suddenly destroy a field full of men who were mostly using every drug & blood enhancing product under the sun.

The concerning thing is though, that basically, people have come to similar conclusions, so focused a ridiculous amount of investigating around one rider (Lance). It might make common sense, but it doesn't equate to a fair and equal testing policy.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

For 2005 you have to go down to Cadel Evans in 8th place to find somebody who hasn't been found guilty of doping violations.

I know Cadel has a squeaky-clean reputation, but even then, in the interests of fairness, you'd need to stage a Lance-esque massive investigation into Cadel involving promising deals with potential cheats etc before awarding it to him.

 

[Herne Hill Seagull]

I'm conflicted on this one - I have the greatest respect for him fighting off his cancer and coming back to compete at that level. But is there seriously anybody who genuinely believed it's possible to win seven Tours clean? At no point have I thought he was a clean cyclist.

 

[albionant]

Armstrong’s TdF Victories

1999
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Alex Zülle (‘98 busted for EPO)
3. Fernando Escartín (Systematic team doping exposed in ‘04)
4. Laurent Dufaux (‘98 busted for EPO)
5. Ángel Casero (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2000
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Christophe Moraue (‘98 busted for EPO)
5. Roberto Heras (‘05 busted for EPO)

2001
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Andrei Kivilev
5. Igor González de Galdeano (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2002
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Raimondas Rumšas (Suspended in ‘03 for doping)
4. Santiago Botero (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Igor González de Galdeano (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2003
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ‘07 for CERA)
4. Tyler Hamilton (Suspended ‘04 for blood doping)
5. Haimar Zubeldia

2004
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Andreas Kloden (Named in doping case in ‘08)
3. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ‘07 for Operacion Puerto ties)
4. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Jose Azevedo (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2005
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ‘07 for Operacion Puerto ties)
3. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Fransico Mancebo (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ‘07 for CERA)

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

With Contadour sitting on Froome's backwheel with 1km to go yesterday I was expecting him to put in a trademark killer kick and leave Froome in his wake but didn't happen, maybe he forgot to have 'steak' for breakfast? Ooooops. How will they blame Team Sky for that?

 

[ATFC Seagull]

With Contadour sitting on Froome's backwheel with 1km to go yesterday I was expecting him to put in a trademark killer kick and leave Froome in his wake but didn't happen, maybe he forgot to have 'steak' for breakfast? Ooooops. How will they blame Team Sky for that?

I was thinking EXACTLY the same yesterday.

 

[Pantani]

Armstrong’s TdF Victories

I was just about to do this, so thanks for saving me the time. This tells you all you need to know, I don't think the fact that Armstrong doped stops him being a great cyclist though, unfortunately the sport was tarnished for most of it's history with this sort of thing. Sadly they were all up to it for pretty much as long as doping has been around, everyone used to dope, now I believe that the pro peleton is 99% clean. Armstrong would still have won several Tours in a clean peleton but maybe not the seven he did win, I can only think of one or two bad days he had during those seven victories and it is the bad days that are the real difference between the dopers and those who do not.