Labour

[glasfryn]

When was the last time a 'left-wing' party won a UK general election? New Labour was a business friendly, left-of-centre party.
Ed Milliband - er no. (Red Ed as he was known, so was viewed as more left-wing than Blair/Brown).
Gordon Brown - er no.
Neil Kinnock - er no.
Michael Foot - er no.

Yep. Harold Wilson - 1974.

So by the time of the next election, it will be about 46 years since a left leaning party has won a UK general election.

No matter what you want to think, the reality is that this country is slight right-of-centre. Most intelligent people dismiss the scare tactics of '24 hours to save the NHS" and shit like that. Most people realise that the country cannot afford everything that everyone wants. Get over it. Life ain't fair. Lief ain't ever been fair. Life ain't ever going to be fair. Those in power always look after themselves. Look at Russia, China, North Korea, America. Wherever you look; power and nepotism thrives. Now, I know it appeals to certain sections of society to believe that we can build a fairer society, but the biggest problem to achieving this is international co-operation relating to company taxation and off-shore tax-shelters. Taxing someone earning say £250k at 50% won't make a blind bit of difference. It's the super-rich and the multi-nationals where the problems really exist, but that's too much of a problem to sort.

thats those who have at one time voted
what about the young,old and those disenchanted ones that never vote because they see the same old,same old thing going on, now maybe they can see something different and maybe they will vote and get something different.
I spent an hour not long ago watching questiontime you you would have thought Tristram Hunt was a tory.
people need change ......................................and like it or not its here at last

 

[larus]

thats those who have at one time voted
what about the young,old and those disenchanted ones that never vote because they see the same old,same old thing going on, now maybe they can see something different and maybe they will vote and get something different.
I spent an hour not long ago watching questiontime you you would have thought Tristram Hunt was a tory.
people need change ......................................and like it or not its here at last

Yes, like we were told by you, Ernest & Herr Tub that there would be a Labour Majority at the last election. You're fighting a class war that no longer exists in the minds of most people. The days of the vast ranks of blue-collared workers are over. The majority of these unskilled, low-paid jobs have been lost to cheap labour parts of the world. With the demise of these industries, the core vote for Labour has diminished, so they MUST appeal to the centre ground. Today, even some trade union leaders weren't giving outright support to Corbyn. Now, if that doesn't concern you, then you are blinkered to having a sensible debate.

I'm no right-wing Tory fan..In fact, I despair at politics and political debate, as the blinkered views of so many mask sensible debate on what is best for the country. The country needs to live within it's means, but we can't have a reasoned debate on that because austerity is bad. Spend, spend, spend today, and leave huge debts to the children to re-pay.

 

[Bladders]

thats those who have at one time voted
what about the young,old and those disenchanted ones that never vote because they see the same old,same old thing going on, now maybe they can see something different and maybe they will vote and get something different.
I spent an hour not long ago watching questiontime you you would have thought Tristram Hunt was a tory.
people need change ......................................and like it or not its here at last

Just amazes me that you think the country is going to take a massive swing to the left cause a few old socialists and some trendy wendy uni students have decided to join the Labour party in the last few days.

I'm all for this sudden new interest in politics but you have to get into the real world.

Currently Labour are no more than a pressure group as of this moment.

 

[BadFish]

I think it should bother you - I'm just rejoicing that someone (or in this case over half a million someones) have just voted to upset the cosy Westminster apple-cart. Bring it on. Respect to all those that upset the apple cart by voting UKIP and SNP too - for too long we've just had two rival bunches of fat cats in Parliament.

This in spades.

 

[Hastings gull]

thats those who have at one time voted
what about the young,old and those disenchanted ones that never vote because they see the same old,same old thing going on, now maybe they can see something different and maybe they will vote and get something different.
I spent an hour not long ago watching questiontime you you would have thought Tristram Hunt was a tory.
people need change ......................................and like it or not its here at last

I wonder about that. We have JC coming from a posh country mansion, desperate to hide that by calling it an old farmhouse, and Diane Abbot, who loves comprehensives for everyone else's children, bar her own precious little darling, of course. Hypocrisy is alive and well and so no change there. Also, has JC ever had a proper job or has he just been chasing causes ever since university? That really would be same old, given the present make-up of the House of Commons.

 

[simmo]

Just amazes me that you think the country is going to take a massive swing to the left cause a few old socialists and some trendy wendy uni students have decided to join the Labour party in the last few days.

I'm all for this sudden new interest in politics but you have to get into the real world.

Currently Labour are no more than a pressure group as of this moment.

Indeed. That is all Labour is now a pressure group that I think will just soon become a vociferous rabble (constantly on protest marches about issue x, y or z). No longer a sensible party that offer any real alternative to floating voters (whom they of course need to win over) with everyday issues that need addressing.

According to Norman Smith on the Today program this morning, Jeremy Corbyn's meeting with his fellow Labour MP's didn't go down too well last night at the Houses of Parliament. JC's stance on key issues were at odds with a majority of his OWN MP's. Smith listed JC's views on Northern Ireland, Syria and his appointment of shadow chancellor amongst many others.

Cameron and the Tories I bet just can't believe their luck. Labour are totally unelectable and surely an internal civil war is coming up. I can see Labour MP's crossing the house and joining the Lib Dems, some to UKIP (and possibly some even to the Tories)

 

[Surf's Up]

Indeed. That is all Labour is now a pressure group that I think will just soon become a vociferous rabble (constantly on protest marches about issue x, y or z). No longer a sensible party that offer any real alternative to floating voters (whom they of course need to win over) with everyday issues that need addressing.

According to Norman Smith on the Today program this morning, Jeremy Corbyn's meeting with his fellow Labour MP's didn't go down too well last night at the Houses of Parliament. JC's stance on key issues were at odds with a majority of his OWN MP's. Smith listed JC's views on Northern Ireland, Syria and his appointment of shadow chancellor amongst many others.

Cameron and the Tories I bet just can't believe their luck. Labour are totally unelectable and surely an internal civil war is coming up. I can see Labour MP's crossing the house and joining the Lib Dems, some to UKIP (and possibly some even to the Tories)

This is why I think a new centre left party will eventually emerge from the chaos. The vast majority of people inclined to vote for Labour are probably centre left and will become rapidly disillusioned with the Corbynista stance, if they're not already. The only way for Corbyn to keep them in the fold will be for him to compromise his views on a whole raft of issues and if this happens he'll be a laughing stock anyway. The Tories are lurching ever further to the right and similarly there will be a significant number of more centrally inclined Tory voters who will find it increasingly difficult to continue to support this shift to the right. Whether people like it or not, the central ground in British politics has always been where the votes lie and only a devasting period of economic downturn as experienced by countries like Spain or Greece will change this.

 

[Hampster Gull]

[/B]

I wonder about that. We have JC coming from a posh country mansion, desperate to hide that by calling it an old farmhouse, and Diane Abbot, who loves comprehensives for everyone else's children, bar her own precious little darling, of course. Hypocrisy is alive and well and so no change there. Also, has JC ever had a proper job or has he just been chasing causes ever since university? That really would be same old, given the present make-up of the House of Commons.

This is what really grates with me, the hypocrisy from the preachers. Also an earlier post said Billy Bragg lives in a £6m house!MM this is the man who signs the Red Flag song. Ha

 

[Hampster Gull]

Its all falling apart for them. Their'll loose

 

[Deleted member 22389]

This is what really grates with me, the hypocrisy from the preachers. Also an earlier post said Billy Bragg lives in a £6m house!MM this is the man who signs the Red Flag song. Ha

****ing hypocrites the lot of them.

 

[pastafarian]

I implore you Corbyn supporters, nay beg you ,please consider what you are doing and who you are supporting..

This is a man who when the options are presented right in front of him makes decisions that would shock most of the British public and also the whole civilised world.

No one in their right mind would bang Diane Abbott, He chose to do this………..i fear for the future of this country under any potential Corbyn government who apply this sort of irrational thinking .

ps not surprised the bloke grew a beard in hoping she wouldnt recognise him again

 

[drew]

This is what really grates with me, the hypocrisy from the preachers. Also an earlier post said Billy Bragg lives in a £6m house!MM this is the man who signs the Red Flag song. Ha

Where does it say that being a socialist means you can't be rich?

 

[Hampster Gull]

Where does it say that being a socialist means you can't be rich?

Isn't the whole point of socialism a fairer distribution of wealth? Or is it only other peoples wealth? If not it feels like the party elite agian, a bit like in the USSR, where the in crowd lived the high life and the rest lived in poverty

 

[cunning fergus]

Where does it say that being a socialist means you can't be rich?

I guess it depends on the nature of that wealth, in any event it is difficult for a socialist to be rich through any means other than pay for work.

If Mr Bragg has employed financial advisors to maximise his wealth by holding property ( e.g. Shares or other instruments traded in markets), then he is taking profit from the workers via capitalist means and is consequently acting in accordance with the bourgeoisie.

Having property in the shape of his multi million pound mansion in Dorset is already a problem as it's worth is in the name of Mr Bragg and not the workers...........those deriving wealth from the housing market (for their own ends) are not socialists in my view..........Landlords are the ultimate capitalists.

Compare Bragg's property owning largesse to the late Bob Crow who lived in council housing, precisely because his socialist belief was that by owning property he would have been taking the wealth and future value (of that property) from the workers collective.

So, beware of rich socialists, they are likely to be capitalists.

 

[drew]

Isn't the whole point of socialism a fairer distribution of wealth? Or is it only other peoples wealth? If not it feels like the party elite agian, a bit like in the USSR, where the in crowd lived the high life and the rest lived in poverty

A fairer distribution based on fair taxation. Are you suggesting that Mr Bragg is a tax dodger? Also, there seems to be a danger of confusing socialism and communism!

 

[drew]

I guess it depends on the nature of that wealth, in any event it is difficult for a socialist to be rich through any means other than pay for work.

If Mr Bragg has employed financial advisors to maximise his wealth by holding property ( e.g. Shares or other instruments traded in markets), then he is taking profit from the workers via capitalist means and is consequently acting in accordance with the bourgeoisie.

Having property in the shape of his multi million pound mansion in Dorset is already a problem as it's worth is in the name of Mr Bragg and not the workers...........those deriving wealth from the housing market (for their own ends) are not socialists in my view..........Landlords are the ultimate capitalists.

Compare Bragg's property owning largesse to the late Bob Crow who lived in council housing, precisely because his socialist belief was that by owning property he would have been taking the wealth and future value (of that property) from the workers collective.

So, beware of rich socialists, they are likely to be capitalists.

Back in the real world!!!

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I implore you Corbyn supporters, nay beg you ,please consider what you are doing and who you are supporting..

This is a man who when the options are presented right in front of him makes decisions that would shock most of the British public and also the whole civilised world.

No one in their right mind would bang Diane Abbott, He chose to do this………..i fear for the future of this country under any potential Corbyn government who apply this sort of irrational thinking .

ps not surprised the bloke grew a beard in hoping she wouldnt recognise him again

I bet if he was in charge now he would be opening the door to hundreds of thousands of economic migrants under the banner of Welcome Refugees. I personally think version of Labour are even worse than the last lost.

 

[cunning fergus]

Back in the real world!!!

Is this your real world where you think socialists are people who can own property, share portfolios and other instruments that generate profit for themselves, thereby denying the benefit of that profit to the workers under the principle of common ownership?

In this world of yours I guess people like Bono would be described as socialist because he talks a good progressive game but beyond these empty words he is really a multi billionaire, tax avoiding capitalist shit.

Interesting world you live in.......

 

[beorhthelm]

Where does it say that being a socialist means you can't be rich?

apart from the part about advancing common ownership and the rejection of profit and accumulating capital?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Isn't the whole point of socialism a fairer distribution of wealth? Or is it only other peoples wealth? If not it feels like the party elite agian, a bit like in the USSR, where the in crowd lived the high life and the rest lived in poverty

Fairer distribution of wealth means being paid a proper amount (aka wages) for work done (aka labour). It doesn't mean forcibly removing money, goods and land from people who have some, and handing it over to people who are unable or unwilling to work. The latter is a cult view in parts of the left, now, and has faded as society has changed . . .

The big change in my lifetime has been access to opportunity. When I was a kid in the 60s we working class types very much knew our place, and were constantly reminded of it. Several kids in my class passed their 11 plus but the parents sent them to Mile Oak because grammar schools were for other people (and the families who sent their kids there were ironically referred to as 'snobs'). It really was class war then. But it is very different now. As Mandleson said, the left is very relaxed about wealth. Unfortunately the transition has caused turbulence.

The missing bit that makes labour different from conservatism (or should do) is the other part of socialism, making sure those who can get back to work are properly supperted while the can't, and those who can never support themselves are looked after with dignity, and making sure that health and education are provided for all, paid for by tax from all. For me that is the stark contrast with the traditional tories, who think that you should fend for yourself, and that any form of state assistance is immoral. But of course hardly anyone these days sits on that particular wing of torydom, just as hardly anyone in labour want's the state to own the entire means of production (all industry nationalised). Cameron wrote the nasty right wing manifesto of Michael Howard, then morphed into a light blue version of the light pink Blair, so I see no reason why Corbyn cannot take his beliefs and restructure them into something more acceptable to a wider electorate, albeit one much more pure red than we have had before. He'll have to if he is to win.