[Politics] Labour has suspended former leader Jeremy Corbyn

[Rdodge30]

Once Starmer points out in detail his plan to absolutely decimate non-dom tax loopholes as well as potentially, a plan to reduce foreign ownership and influence of the UK press, the right wing press are going to launch the sort of catastrophic smear campaign that was thrown at Corbyn. I think the Mail had a 20 page anti-Corbyn special on day of the election last time.

You might want to see Starmer lay out his policies line by line but anyone inside the Labour Party with even the slightest grasp of election tactics will be urging Starmer to keep quiet as long as possible. The polls are fine for Labour, going after the 16% laggard vote at this point in time would be catastrophic in my opinion as anyone who has studied change management would tell you.



View attachment 158978

Were there ever any Labour or even undecided voters reading the Daily Mail? I often see the Daily Mail as a reason for election results on this forum but I can’t imagine anyone reading it is not 100% Conservative voter

I haven’t studied change management and don’t understand your graph

The 2 policies you’ve mentioned (that would cause the Daily Mail to react) are policies that appeal mainly to hardline labour voters in the first place

The solutions the country needs and the policies that may well swing voters are in my view more likely to be NHS, Cost of Living, Immigration, education

 

[Weststander]

Just put the 'you lost, get over it' contingent on ignore. I know nobody in real life who would talk to me like that.

Brexit is gone now. An agenda to rejoin the EU has not even begun to manifest yet, anywhere outside of the irrelevant corridors of political navel gazing (for example I would imagine it is Liberal and Green policy, albeit I have no reason to bother checking).

Signing up to various trade arrangements may re-emerge as something potentially appealing, but presently it is hard to 'feel' a tangible negative impact of Brexit and be confident of cause and effect.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying there have been no adverse effects of Brexit. I'm saying that it is not obvious that the shit many of us are now in is directly attributable to Brexit. My estimation is that the shit some of us are in is due to the way the tories have run the country these last 13 years, which includes their Brexit fiasco, but I can't prove it, and it is debatable whether a majority of the electorate blames all the ills on Brexit either. My friendship group is mostly left of centre and I can't remember the last time anyone moaned about Brexit. The residents of Northern Ireland may of course disagree about the negative impact of Brexit, albeit they are a weird lot and probably blame 'betrayal' by the tories rather than Brexit itself.

So in reply to another post, it would be madness for labour to put a 'rejoin referendum' in their manifesto. For it to be a fair referendum, it would need to be what 'call me Dave' f***ed up over last time, 60:40 in favour of change for change to occur, not 50.1 versus 49.9. It would be madness to risk an embarrassing loss in such a referendum until the nation is clamouring to rejoin. We are far from that, and I'd venture to say that we will never ever be there.

So rather than 'I lost so I should shut up', my attitude now is that the horse has bolted and the barn doors cannot be repaired. Very sad (I was a firm remainer) but the court of public opinion is the bolted horse.

Through work and friends/family, I hear a really wide range of political and apolitical viewpoints. Only two of whom ever mention the EU or Brexit these days. My Dad who’s a huge supporter of the EU and our membership, still quietly fuming. Conversely my lifelong mate who morphed from always a Labour supporter into a Brexiteer (as well as drawn towards Trump, climate change …. is it all that? etc) .... still loathes Remainers.

The rest: “Oh cheer up, there’s more to life than politics. Anyway, what are your plans for the weekend?”

I quite like debating politics. NSC is certainly the go-to place for that, it’s a magnet for obsessives, giving the false impression that in Sussex every adult is too.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

The only thing Corbyn has personally done that could be considered in the ballpark of antisemitism (years before he was leader) was share on Facebook an anti-capitalist mural which on closer inspection featured antisemitic tropes/caricatures.

Everything else is a snowball of accusations and misinterpretations that have become the accepted narrative. He supports Palestinians and opposes Israel’s treatment of them.

That’s the start, after that there’s accusation that his leadership wasn’t taking accusation of antisemitism seriously - this was caused by elements opposed to his leadership spamming complains against every left leaning member who was critical of Israel, regardless of whether they were even Labour members, and then anti-Corbyn people in the complaints office deliberately held them up to make Corbyn look bad. This is all recorded fact in the Forde report.

And the constant slinging of mud has spiralled to the point where words that were once actionable (that he’s an antisemite) is now just accepted fact because everyone says it. It’s been normalised to the point of being accepted, regardless of the lack of any element of evidence, and if you say otherwise well maybe you’re an antisemite too.

Corbyn might have been an ineffective Labour leader and a better one might have done more than give Teresa May a bloody nose, but he is not an antisemite.

 

[Weststander]

The only thing Corbyn has personally done that could be considered in the ballpark of antisemitism (years before he was leader) was share on Facebook an anti-capitalist mural which on closer inspection featured antisemitic tropes/caricatures.

Everything else is a snowball of accusations and misinterpretations that have become the accepted narrative. He supports Palestinians and opposes Israel’s treatment of them.

That’s the start, after that there’s accusation that his leadership wasn’t taking accusation of antisemitism seriously - this was caused by elements opposed to his leadership spamming complains against every left leaning member who was critical of Israel, regardless of whether they were even Labour members, and then anti-Corbyn people in the complaints office deliberately held them up to make Corbyn look bad. This is all recorded fact in the Forde report.

And the constant slinging of mud has spiralled to the point where words that were once actionable (that he’s an antisemite) is now just accepted fact because everyone says it. It’s been normalised to the point of being accepted, regardless of the lack of any element of evidence, and if you say otherwise well maybe you’re an antisemite too.

The Labour Party under Corbyn’s watch committed unlawful acts of antisemitism.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/inquiries-and-investigations/investigation-labour-party

Bringing Israel into the conversation is the go to smokescreen to smear the UK victims of this form of racism. A Jewish Labour MP required police protection at Labour conferences in the Corbyn reign. Jewish labour MP’s faced an onslaught of online hate and threats.

Margaret Hodge, Ruth Smeeth and Luciana Berger are as British as anyone, deserving the same quiet life as any of us. Their racial background should not be conflated with a hatred of a nation 2,000 mile away.

Rachel Reeves for example has made honest speeches about the scourge of anti semitism with the LP.

Corbyn is probably not anti semitic, but the party in his time allowed racists to join and/or become overtly vocal in the hate. Who knows why? Not wishing to eject chums on hard left causes?

 

[clapham_gull]

Livingstone, Johnson, Khan, Corbyn. Proper rogues gallery

As a resident (before he went bat shit hat stand and I got into an argument on here with the Livingstonians who were the precursor to the Corbynistas), he was a very very good Mayor.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Through work and friends/family, I hear a really wide range of political and apolitical viewpoints. Only two of whom ever mention the EU or Brexit these days. My Dad who’s a huge supporter of the EU and our membership, still quietly fuming. Conversely my lifelong mate who morphed from always a Labour supporter into a Brexiteer (as well as drawn towards Trump, climate change …. is it all that? etc).

The rest: “Oh cheer up, there’s more to life than politics. Anyway, what are your plans for the weekend?”

I quite like debating politics. NSC is certainly the go-to place for that, it’s a magnet for obsessives, giving the false impression that in Sussex every adult is too.

Corbyn was long gone before we actually finally 'left' the EU on 1st January 2021.

I think you love these political threads even more than you claim

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Just put the 'you lost, get over it' contingent on ignore. I know nobody in real life who would talk to me like that.

Brexit is gone now. An agenda to rejoin the EU has not even begun to manifest yet, anywhere outside of the irrelevant corridors of political navel gazing (for example I would imagine it is Liberal and Green policy, albeit I have no reason to bother checking).

Signing up to various trade arrangements may re-emerge as something potentially appealing, but presently it is hard to 'feel' a tangible negative impact of Brexit and be confident of cause and effect.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying there have been no adverse effects of Brexit. I'm saying that it is not obvious that the shit many of us are now in is directly attributable to Brexit. My estimation is that the shit some of us are in is due to the way the tories have run the country these last 13 years, which includes their Brexit fiasco, but I can't prove it, and it is debatable whether a majority of the electorate blames all the ills on Brexit either. My friendship group is mostly left of centre and I can't remember the last time anyone moaned about Brexit. The residents of Northern Ireland may of course disagree about the negative impact of Brexit, albeit they are a weird lot and probably blame 'betrayal' by the tories rather than Brexit itself.

So in reply to another post, it would be madness for labour to put a 'rejoin referendum' in their manifesto. For it to be a fair referendum, it would need to be what 'call me Dave' f***ed up over last time, 60:40 in favour of change for change to occur, not 50.1 versus 49.9. It would be madness to risk an embarrassing loss in such a referendum until the nation is clamouring to rejoin. We are far from that, and I'd venture to say that we will never ever be there.

So rather than 'I lost so I should shut up', my attitude now is that the horse has bolted and the barn doors cannot be repaired. Very sad (I was a firm remainer) but the court of public opinion is the bolted horse.

A brilliant and reasonable post. I wanted Brexit 30 years before the term was ever invented though I was young at the time. I now regret much of what has happened, we will never know if the past few years would have been better in or out, so much has changed what with Covid and now the Russian expansionist aggression. I fully believe the vote would have been different had we known what was around the corner. I certainly would have revised my own position - hah, the harsh reality of hindsight. I wish the Brexiteers who act in the way described 'get over it' would understand that they also need to 'get over it' for want of a better phrase. It is said that east is east and west is west and ne'er the twain shall meet but in human or political terms, if we are to heal the divisions between our people, we need to understand that one side is hurting and resentful - angry and inconsiderate words will only prolong the unhappy situation.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

View attachment 158969

https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/

Currently 53% - 33%, about 62/38 of those showing a preference, so nowhere near 60/40

On the face of it these are stunning figures. And I don't see any sign of a change in them in the near future. However as HWT said, the scenario needs to play out for longer for any more conclusive deduction. Covid and the Russians exacerbated an already difficult point in our history - if we end up with a more peaceful few years, it will be interesting to see if any of the supposed benefits ever play out and turn into anything positive.

 

[clapham_gull]

The only thing Corbyn has personally done that could be considered in the ballpark of antisemitism (years before he was leader) was share on Facebook an anti-capitalist mural which on closer inspection featured antisemitic tropes/caricatures.

Unfortunately that's simply not true, although in comparison with the current Government....

There are countless other examples I'm afraid.

When I was growing up the obsession of the left and politicians like Corbyn was South Africa and a very good thing that was too, especially with our Government's attitude to it.

The other obsession was Irish Nationalism. Very much proved right in that respect, hypocritically attacked in opening dialogue when 80s Governments were doing the same but lying to us when they said they wouldn't do deals with terrorists.

When both were "resolved" that kind of politics needed another cause and that was Palestine.

There wasn't much "nuance" required with campaigning against apartheid and with Northern Ireland they were doing the same as their critics, but with the Israel/Palestine issue you need to be fair more intelligent and balanced for obvious reasons.

The left has failed in that regard and I'd very much include Corbyn in that. I have no idea of what has gone on within the party and don't care. I just observed the campaigning particularly within London Universities about a decade ago and felt very uncomfortable with it.

God knows what it felt like for Jewish students.

Politicians like Corbyn need to own it, admit their mistakes and move on. No-one is perfect and left wing antisemitism very much exists and has a long history.

Unfortunately on this issue they as stubborn as hell.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Unfortunately that's simply not true, although in comparison with the current Government....

There are countless other examples I'm afraid.

When I was growing up the obsession of the left and politicians like Corbyn was South Africa and a very good thing that was too, especially with our Government's attitude to it.

The other obsession was Irish Nationalism. Very much proved right in that respect, hypocritically attacked in opening dialogue when 80s Governments were doing the same but lying to us when they said they wouldn't do deals with terrorists.

When both were "resolved" that kind of politics needed another cause and that was Palestine.

There wasn't much "nuance" required with campaigning against apartheid and with Northern Ireland they were doing the same as their critics, but with the Israel/Palestine issue you need to be fair more intelligent and balanced for obvious reasons.

The left has failed in that regard and I'd very much include Corbyn in that. I have no idea of what has gone on within the party and don't care. I just observed the campaigning particularly within London Universities about a decade ago and felt very uncomfortable with it.

God knows what it felt like for Jewish students.

Politicians like Corbyn need to own it, admit their mistakes and move on. No-one is perfect and left wing antisemitism very much exists and has a long history.

Unfortunately on this issue they as stubborn as hell.

Some very good and salient points, which certainly justifies this thread,

Which was started three years ago, when he was leader of a dysfunctional Labour party, a large number people still thought Brexit was a good idea, and also thought that Johnson was the answer

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Unfortunately that's simply not true, although in comparison with the current Government....

There are countless other examples I'm afraid.

When I was growing up the obsession of the left and politicians like Corbyn was South Africa and a very good thing that was too, especially with our Government's attitude to it.

The other obsession was Irish Nationalism. Very much proved right in that respect, hypocritically attacked in opening dialogue when 80s Governments were doing the same but lying to us when they said they wouldn't do deals with terrorists.

When both were "resolved" that kind of politics needed another cause and that was Palestine.

There wasn't much "nuance" required with campaigning against apartheid and with Northern Ireland they were doing the same as their critics, but with the Israel/Palestine issue you need to be fair more intelligent and balanced for obvious reasons.

The left has failed in that regard and I'd very much include Corbyn in that. I have no idea of what has gone on within the party and don't care. I just observed the campaigning particularly within London Universities about a decade ago and felt very uncomfortable with it.

God knows what it felt like for Jewish students.

Politicians like Corbyn need to own it, admit their mistakes and move on. No-one is perfect and left wing antisemitism very much exists and has a long history.

Unfortunately on this issue they as stubborn as hell.

As I have mentioned on several occasions I resigned from my union last year when our local branch (over 1000* members) voted to back a motion (made by a Palestinian lecturer in Palestinian studies) to boycott Israel and any company or organization that has dealings with Israel. And yet my union has never voted to boycott Zimbabwe, Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or North Korea.

The Corbyn left opposes all forms of discrimination, but have a ludicrous and childish obsession with Israel. How will ****s like Bibi ever be banished when the whole of Israel is in the gun scopes of this element of 'the left'? The idiot Lansman, who disappeared off the face of the planet 18 months ago, resurfaced to pipe up yesterday threatening ruin on Labour for defenestrating Corbyn. Good. The more the likes of Lansman criticize Labour the better for Labour.

*The vote was 22 to 5.

 

[zefarelly]

Through work and friends/family, I hear a really wide range of political and apolitical viewpoints. Only two of whom ever mention the EU or Brexit these days. My Dad who’s a huge supporter of the EU and our membership, still quietly fuming. Conversely my lifelong mate who morphed from always a Labour supporter into a Brexiteer (as well as drawn towards Trump, climate change …. is it all that? etc).

The rest: “Oh cheer up, there’s more to life than politics. Anyway, what are your plans for the weekend?”

I quite like debating politics. NSC is certainly the go-to place for that, it’s a magnet for obsessives, giving the false impression that in Sussex every adult is too.

The way I read that is that most people have buried their heads of Brexit, with some justification as it's infuriatingly shit on all levels which ever side of the sinking fence you sit on . . . All of which which suits the governement well as they can continue to f*** us over uncontested. So long as there's a bunch of yoghurt knitting, limp wristed shandy drinkers who couldn't win a game of tiddlywinks on the other side.

 

[Weststander]

The way I read that is that most people have buried their heads of Brexit, with some justification as it's infuriatingly shit on all levels which ever side of the sinking fence you sit on . . . All of which which suits the governement well as they can continue to f*** us over uncontested. So long as there's a bunch of yoghurt knitting, limp wristed shandy drinkers who couldn't win a game of tiddlywinks on the other side.

My take, is that for better or worse, most people just want to get on with their lives, whether that be making ends meet or enjoying stuff.

A great example is one my sister in laws, a recently retired very early headteacher. Definitely a Remainer and never a Tory. A very positive person, she's always changed the subject when people talk politics or miserable stuff.

 

[Weststander]

Corbyn was long gone before we actually finally 'left' the EU on 1st January 2021.

I think you love these political threads even more than you claim

That's why I said I quite like debating politics .

But I can easily take a few days or weeks off the obsessive nsc threads that keep going round in circles, if work, music or sport take my fancy.

 

[Rdodge30]

The more the likes of Lansman criticize Labour the better for Labour.

 

[aolstudios]

The Labour Party under Corbyn’s watch committed unlawful acts of antisemitism.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/inquiries-and-investigations/investigation-labour-party

Bringing Israel into the conversation is the go to smokescreen to smear the UK victims of this form of racism. A Jewish Labour MP required police protection at Labour conferences in the Corbyn reign. Jewish labour MP’s faced an onslaught of online hate and threats.

Margaret Hodge, Ruth Smeeth and Luciana Berger are as British as anyone, deserving the same quiet life as any of us. Their racial background should not be conflated with a hatred of a nation 2,000 mile away.

Rachel Reeves for example has made honest speeches about the scourge of anti semitism with the LP.

Corbyn is probably not anti semitic, but the party in his time allowed racists to join and/or become overtly vocal in the hate. Who knows why? Not wishing to eject chums on hard left causes?

He's antisemitic. An obsessive, career long antisemite. & thick as mince

 

[Pavilionaire]

It must be acknowledged that Corbyn did enthuse a significant minority with his politics, and that is an achievement of sorts. David Cameron and Theresa May will never be able to say that.

I hate the thought of Starmer simply staying schtum for another 18 months until the next GE in the hope that by not putting a ffoot wrong he'll get the keys to No.10. I think Britain deserves better.

I don't like to use football parlance, but it does feel like he is 1-0 up with half an hour to go. Will he try and close out his 1-0 win or risk going for a second and leave himself open at the back? Maybe he should have a word with De Zerbi?

 

[BadFish]

I am still confused about what Corbyn did that was anti semetic?

There was obviously some stuff going on in the labour party that he didn't deal with and he has been critical of Israel (but this isn't anti semetic in its self is it?).

Can someone help me out?

 

[Weststander]

I am still confused about what Corbyn did that was anti semetic?

There was obviously some stuff going on in the labour party that he didn't deal with and he has been critical of Israel (but this isn't anti semetic in its self is it?).

Can someone help me out?

1. His leadership failed to deal with the anti semitism in the party, despite claiming there was zero tolerance.

2. Political interference from the leader’s office and others in the complaints process. Interfering in decisions as to whether to investigate and whether to suspend. In itself discriminatory and unlawful.

3. Interfering in the complaint over Corbyn’s support for the anti semitic artist, not allowing due process.


https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-of-the-ehrc-inquiry-into-labour-antisemitism

 

[Swansman]

A price worth paying to get the keys to No10.

Corbyn = Eternal opposition

You think abandoning democratic principles is a price worth paying for getting your favorite candidate into power?

Maybe says a bit about you and the bloke you vote for.