[Politics] Labour has suspended former leader Jeremy Corbyn

[Swansman]

Why wouldn’t you? Because you lack a heart. Innocent Ukrainian lives are nothing to you, just stats that balance out your internet based contrarian view on geo politics.

You talk as if decent people here and elsewhere don’t condemn all murders, whether it be Palestinians, Syrians killed by barrel bombs or gassing, or Ukrainians who just wanted to be happy. I’ve personally met Ukrainian refugees, their pain and suffering is upsetting.

You’ve spent your adult life at the Swedish taxpayers expense immersing yourself in a black and white world of anything western or mainstream is evil.

In real time Putin and China with Uhghars are carrying out mass genocide. Innocents lined up next to the pits, then a gun put to their head. Women and infants raped on an industrial scale. And all you can produce is whataboutery.

You’re lucky you live in a nation where contrarian views are part and parcel of democracy and free speech. In China and Russia, any open dissent and you’d have disappeared.

Glad that you confirmed my recollection of some disgusting posts on the Ukraine thread. People were dying and posted your cold bullshit.

I don't lack a heart.

I care deeply about people around me. I don't fall into tears any time some teenager falls of his bike and dies in rural China or get lost and die some horrible death during a hike in some Mexican desert. Innocent Ukrainian lives mean little to me. Innocent Paraguayan lives mean little.

150 000 people die every day, most of them are "innocent" (whatever that means). Maybe you do care about all of them and say a 150 000 little prayers each day. Or maybe you are manufacturing your empathy to make you look good and me look bad. I know what the most likely of those two are.

You spend every day talking about Ukrainians either because you've meet some refugees or because the media is more keen about telling their story than the story of other suffering people. Both of those things are human, and in one sense I am no different: I have a lot of friends from Iran, Iraq, Syria and Palestine but haven't met that many Ukrainians. This means that when there is a bombing or earthquake or something in Syria, I get more upset than if it happens in Mongolia or Ukraine where I have limited connection.

I'm not the one living in a black and white world. You are, as shown by your failure to mention any Western atrocities and solely mentioning those carried out by other cultures than your own.

We have no more free speech and democracy in Sweden than in China or Russia. Neither do we treat people better. Lundin OIl was highly complicit in the Second Sudanese Civil War where more 1-3 million people died (but obviously you know about that since you care about every innocent life). God knows how many lives Wallenberg has taken.

In reality, you're no more morally superior than me - you just pretend to be. All I hear about is your parroting newspapers. You care about Ukrainian lives because it gets a lot of news attention plus they are killed by Russians, the eternal enemy. Your empathy is politically oriented and manufactured. You selectively care about Ukrainians because 1) you've heard of them and 2) you believe they share your political and cultural ideas, and skin colour. You selectively don't care about Western mine companies causing civil wars or destruction in eg Africa because 1) no one is telling you about it and you are too lazy to find out yourself and 2) you think they are weird people from a different culture that you are prejudiced about.

My cold bullshit or your microwave-heated emotions... not that different. Just two sides of a coin really.

 

[Weststander]

I don't lack a heart.

I care deeply about people around me. I don't fall into tears any time some teenager falls of his bike and dies in rural China or get lost and die some horrible death during a hike in some Mexican desert. Innocent Ukrainian lives mean little to me. Innocent Paraguayan lives mean little.

150 000 people die every day, most of them are "innocent" (whatever that means). Maybe you do care about all of them and say a 150 000 little prayers each day. Or maybe you are manufacturing your empathy to make you look good and me look bad. I know what the most likely of those two are.

You spend every day talking about Ukrainians either because you've meet some refugees or because the media is more keen about telling their story than the story of other suffering people. Both of those things are human, and in one sense I am no different: I have a lot of friends from Iran, Iraq, Syria and Palestine but haven't met that many Ukrainians. This means that when there is a bombing or earthquake or something in Syria, I get more upset than if it happens in Mongolia or Ukraine where I have limited connection.

I'm not the one living in a black and white world. You are, as shown by your failure to mention any Western atrocities and solely mentioning those carried out by other cultures than your own.

We have no more free speech and democracy in Sweden than in China or Russia. Neither do we treat people better. Lundin OIl was highly complicit in the Second Sudanese Civil War where more 1-3 million people died (but obviously you know about that since you care about every innocent life). God knows how many lives Wallenberg has taken.

In reality, you're no more morally superior than me - you just pretend to be. All I hear about is your parroting newspapers. You care about Ukrainian lives because it gets a lot of news attention plus they are killed by Russians, the eternal enemy. Your empathy is politically oriented and manufactured. You selectively care about Ukrainians because 1) you've heard of them and 2) you believe they share your political and cultural ideas, and skin colour. You selectively don't care about Western mine companies causing civil wars or destruction in eg Africa because 1) no one is telling you about it and you are too lazy to find out yourself and 2) you think they are weird people from a different culture that you are prejudiced about.

My cold bullshit or your microwave-heated emotions... not that different. Just two sides of a coin really.

You didn’t listen, I’ve actually met Ukrainian refugees.

Thrashing around making wild accusations along race lines etc. Desist from furtively claiming or insinuating that those who care about Ukraine, have no interest in other injustices and genocides in the world.

You talk in posts about being left wing or for the common man. Yet you have lots of time for Putin, a murdering fascist running a capitalist non-democracy where the wealth gap is astonishing. A handful of folk are billionaires, countless millions are poor. Yet you condemn your keyboard adversaries the West for what you claim is the same thing. A hypocrite with a selective moral code.

It’s you that’s playing war games in your mind. Something in your psyche that stops you showing the slightest bit of sadness for infants, women, innocent being tortured and raped in their own sovereign nation of Ukraine. Because that wouldn’t fit in with a cold backing of anything but The West.

 

[Swansman]

You didn’t listen, I’ve actually met Ukrainian refugees.

Thrashing around making wild accusations along race lines etc. Desist from furtively claiming or insinuating that those who care about Ukraine, have no interest in other injustices and genocides in the world.

You talk in posts about being left wing or for the common man. Yet you have lots of time for Putin, a murdering fascist running a capitalist non-democracy where the wealth gap is astonishing. A handful of folk are billionaires, countless millions are poor. Yet you condemn your keyboard adversaries the West for what you claim is the same thing. A hypocrite with a selective moral code.

It’s you that’s playing war games in your mind. Something in your psyche that stops you showing the slightest bit of sadness for infants, women, innocent being tortured and raped in their own sovereign nation of Ukraine. Because that wouldn’t fit in with a cold backing of anything but The West.

You are claiming the same thing about me. Because I give a shit about some people and events, and don't talk much about Ukraine, apparently I don't give a shit about them. Which is partially true because I don't usually care about people I have had zero interaction with of any kind. Good that you do care about the 150 000 people who die every day and the millions raped in various countries. Realistically speaking you must be crying 24/7. I don't. Does it make you a better person or a lying person?

As I've said repeatedly, I don't have any more time for Vladimir Putin than I have for Joe Biden, Current English PM, Ulf Kristersson, the Wallenbergs, Exxon, JPMorgan or anyone else. They are all running murdering fascist capitalist non-democracies with astonishing wealth gaps. f*** all of them. Is it difficult to understand?

Something in my psyche does indeed stop me from feeling sadness for infants, women, men, innocent, oldies suffering and dying in every single hellhole on this planet. I do believe it is mainly down to survival instinct. If I would be deeply saddened by 150 000 deaths a day, millions of rapes and beatings and horrible accidents and diseases and starvations, I'd shot myself in the head five minutes into day 1. It is not normal behaviour to care about everyone on the planet. Good on you if you do, personally I think you're lying and just trying to score cheap points.

 

[Weststander]

You are claiming the same thing about me. Because I give a shit about some people and events, and don't talk much about Ukraine, apparently I don't give a shit about them. Which is partially true because I don't usually care about people I have had zero interaction with of any kind. Good that you do care about the 150 000 people who die every day and the millions raped in various countries. Realistically speaking you must be crying 24/7. I don't. Does it make you a better person or a lying person?

As I've said repeatedly, I don't have any more time for Vladimir Putin than I have for Joe Biden, Current English PM, Ulf Kristersson, the Wallenbergs, Exxon, JPMorgan or anyone else. They are all running murdering fascist capitalist non-democracies with astonishing wealth gaps. f*** all of them. Is it difficult to understand?

Something in my psyche does indeed stop me from feeling sadness for infants, women, men, innocent, oldies suffering and dying in every single hellhole on this planet. I do believe it is mainly down to survival instinct. If I would be deeply saddened by 150 000 deaths a day, millions of rapes and beatings and horrible accidents and diseases and starvations, I'd shot myself in the head five minutes into day 1. It is not normal behaviour to care about everyone on the planet. Good on you if you do, personally I think you're lying and just trying to score cheap points.

You specifically butted in on the Ukraine thread when people were making humanitarian posts, with whataboutery about NATO.

With a detached coldness. Not once showing real sadness, just engaging in arguments.

Then you disappeared from the thread for an age, most unlike you, when comments were still made about Putin that previously had rattled your cage. Were you banned from the thread or told to leave it alone?

 

[jcdenton08]

You specifically butted in on the Ukraine thread when people were making humanitarian posts, with whataboutery about NATO.

With a detached coldness. Not once showing real sadness, just engaging in arguments.

Then you disappeared from the thread for an age, most unlike you, when comments were still made about Putin that previously had rattled your cage. Were you banned from the thread or told to leave it alone?

Or sectioned.

 

[Swansman]

You specifically butted in on the Ukraine thread when people were making humanitarian posts, with whataboutery about NATO.

With a detached coldness. Not once showing real sadness, just engaging in arguments.

Then you disappeared from the thread for an age, most unlike you, when comments were still made about Putin that previously had rattled your cage. Were you banned from the thread or told to leave it alone?

Yeah I was discussing the war in the thread about the war...

I show sadness here and there over this and that. On forums I mainly argue with people. Discussion is the word I think.

I was banned from the thread but the ban was removed with the forum change (I think) but I choose to discuss that topic mainly on a different (Flashback.org) forum where there is a broader set of opinions and perspectives.

 

[LamieRobertson]

You are claiming the same thing about me. Because I give a shit about some people and events, and don't talk much about Ukraine, apparently I don't give a shit about them. Which is partially true because I don't usually care about people I have had zero interaction with of any kind. Good that you do care about the 150 000 people who die every day and the millions raped in various countries. Realistically speaking you must be crying 24/7. I don't. Does it make you a better person or a lying person?

As I've said repeatedly, I don't have any more time for Vladimir Putin than I have for Joe Biden, Current English PM, Ulf Kristersson, the Wallenbergs, Exxon, JPMorgan or anyone else. They are all running murdering fascist capitalist non-democracies with astonishing wealth gaps. f*** all of them. Is it difficult to understand?

Something in my psyche does indeed stop me from feeling sadness for infants, women, men, innocent, oldies suffering and dying in every single hellhole on this planet. I do believe it is mainly down to survival instinct. If I would be deeply saddened by 150 000 deaths a day, millions of rapes and beatings and horrible accidents and diseases and starvations, I'd shot myself in the head five minutes into day 1. It is not normal behaviour to care about everyone on the planet. Good on you if you do, personally I think you're lying and just trying to score cheap points.

Grief you really are coming across as a nasty shit..making so many accusations this evening…have you ever thought about going into politics

 

[jcdenton08]

Yeah I was discussing the war in the thread about the war...

I show sadness here and there over this and that. On forums I mainly argue with people. Discussion is the word I think.

I was banned from the thread but the ban was removed with the forum change (I think) but I choose to discuss that topic mainly on a different (Flashback.org) forum where there is a broader set of opinions and perspectives.

You don’t say?

 

[Weststander]

Yeah I was discussing the war in the thread about the war...

I show sadness here and there over this and that. On forums I mainly argue with people. Discussion is the word I think.

I was banned from the thread but the ban was removed with the forum change (I think) but I choose to discuss that topic mainly on a different (Flashback.org) forum where there is a broader set of opinions and perspectives.

People had family in Ukraine and made that clear, but you posted your cut n paste cold essays about NATO being worse. Emboldened and possibly excited that the West were paying ‘a price’. The West weren’t paying a price, Ukrainians and I know this first hand just wanted to be happy and independent, then a genocidal war machine led by a fascist illegally crossed the border and destroyed that.

How could any kind person detach themselves from the suffering of innocents, giving primacy to their hero taking on the West?

 

[jcdenton08]

People had family in Ukraine and made that clear, but you posted your cut n paste cold essays about NATO being worse. Emboldened and possibly excited that the West were paying ‘a price’. The West weren’t paying a price, Ukrainians and I know this first hand just wanted to be happy and independent, then a genocidal war machine led by a fascist illegally crossed the border and destroyed that.

How could any kind person detach themselves from the suffering of innocents, giving primacy to their hero taking on the West?

Just don’t engage any more. Wait for the inevitable ban for “Swanny”. Ignore and move on. It’ll be rough for a few days until the mods digest everything - and the mods here are extremely patient - anywhere else he’d have been banned frankly ages ago. He is experiencing another manic episode. It’s nobody’s job here to babysit.

 

[Swansman]

have you ever thought about going into politics

Yes.

People had family in Ukraine and made that clear, but you posted your cut n paste cold essays about NATO being worse. Emboldened and possibly excited that the West were paying ‘a price’. The West weren’t paying a price, Ukrainians and I know this first hand just wanted to be happy and independent, then a genocidal war machine led by a fascist illegally crossed the border and destroyed that.

How could any kind person detach themselves from the suffering of innocents, giving primacy to their hero taking on the West?

I don't remember the actual circumstances but very much doubt the person with the family in Ukraine and the take on NATO being shit were related to each other - more likely two separate posts from different perspectives.

It is easy to detach yourself from the suffering of innocents. Several hundred million - possibly a billion or two - innocent people suffer each day and in order to live my life I have to ignore most of them most of the time. Just like everyone else does.

Again, Vladimir Putin is not my hero. I don't like him for a multitude of reasons. But like any and every person, he's got a handful or so opinions that I agree with and a couple of million opinions and perspectives I don't agree with.

 

[Weststander]

I don't remember the actual circumstances but very much doubt the person with the family in Ukraine and the take on NATO being shit were related to each other - more likely two separate posts from different perspectives.

It is easy to detach yourself from the suffering of innocents. Several hundred million - possibly a billion or two - innocent people suffer each day and in order to live my life I have to ignore most of them most of the time. Just like everyone else does.

Again, Vladimir Putin is not my hero. I don't like him for a multitude of reasons. But like any and every person, he's got a handful or so opinions that I agree with and a couple of million opinions and perspectives I don't agree with.

And your reason for not compassionately supporting the 44m Ukrainians, here, whilst instead throughout talking about NATO? It’s not a war game, overnight Putin by choice added 44m to the 1b you mention. As a humanitarian going by comments about Allende and Palestinians, shirley you felt their pain and people come first.

 

[Swansman]

And your reason for not compassionately supporting the 44m Ukrainians, here, whilst instead throughout talking about NATO instead? It’s not a war game, overnight Putin by choice added 44m to the 1b you mention. As a humanitarian going by comments about Allende and Palestinians, shirley you felt their pain and people come first.

As I said earlier:
If you have strong connections to something, you're more likely to be more emotionally invested in it. If my mother would die in a car crash tomorrow, I'd be more sad than if 程潇 died in the car crash instead. Apparently you are different and feel that each day I should suffer with the 1bn 44m that are struggling a lot on this planet and that I should care about these innocent people as if they were my families.

But I don't function that way. I have a bunch of Syrian and Palestinian friends, a few Iraqis and a couple of guys from Iran. I have no friends from Ukraine (or Russia for that matter). My granddad was imprisoned for protesting against the Vietnam war, which certainly also contributes to my views on Western society. These things mean that when something terrible happens in Syria or Palestine I always feel shit and have to ask my friends if all their friends and family are fine, whereas when something happens in Ukraine I have no such worries. Am I a terrible person for caring more about my mum than about 程潇? Or for caring more about my friends than about someone I have no connection to?

That I have these connections mean that I prioritise what sort of injustices and atrocities that I focus on. When the entire world is supposed to weep over Ukraine and send all sorts of guns and shit there to keep fighting this shitty war, while ignoring and doing absolutely nothing about Israel terrorising and carrying out a genocide in Palestine for the last 70 or so years... of course it gets on my nerves. You expect me to side with NATO when a prominent NATO nation, supported by other NATO nations, have bombed a couple of my friends country into pieces.

I have no horse in the race in Ukraine, other than wanting the war to stop, preferably with a status quo. I want the Ukrainian people to win, that it something I share with you. But I genuinely don't know what would be the best outcome. If Russia wins (not that they actually want to, but hypothetically speaking) they will remain what they were before - cheap labour working in a 1960s industrial environment. If the US and their agent Zelenskyy wins, they will be permanently impoverished and indepted while the US corporations steal all their stuff. None of those outcomes really makes me want to transform into some sort of cheerleader. But like I mentioned above, my concerns are mainly elsewhere, where I have stronger personal connections.

 

[Zeberdi]

Something in my psyche does indeed stop me from feeling sadness for infants, women, men, innocent, oldies suffering and dying in every single hellhole on this planet.

I’m not sure you meant how that comes across but if so, that would be imo somewhat disturbing and sociopathic (which of course is a basic psychological characteristic (and probably requirement!) of most political leaders (of any persuasion) ) who justifies declaring a war either on his/her own people or those of another country/culture that will result in the death of thousands of non-militarised citizens - US in Iraq, Russia in Ukraine, Syria in Syria, Rwanda in Rwanda, then Rwanda and Uganda in the DRC, the US on Hiroshima, Britain in India, Britain partitioning India, to name a few ….list goes on.

It is easy to detach yourself from the suffering of innocents. Several hundred million - possibly a billion or two - innocent people suffer each day and in order to live my life I have to ignore most of them most of the time. Just like everyone else does.

Perhaps ‘detachment’ is a better word to describe how you present your relationship with ‘suffering’ and the geo-political traumas/machinations of the world, than your comments in the first quote above. It is far healthier because without some level of ‘detachment’, we can’t be functional in a ‘broken’ world fully aware of what’s going on around us and remain psychologically healthy or without having Nietzsche’s proverbial ‘Abyss’ stare back at us.

Maybe this is where you and others are failing to communicate, when, for example, you try and present alternative perspectives and (untimely!) ‘whatabouteries’ because you see the biases in world views, maybe others mis- interpret that as a ‘dissociative’ response to something they see as deserving of more focus - A healthy detachment is very very different from ‘dissociative’ detachment which is a disordered lack of engagement with the world/friends/family etc and an escape from reality in ways that are involuntary and unhealthy and cause problems with functioning in everyday life.

The key point though, is that compassion, love of others and healthy detachment are not mutually exclusive, maybe it is even the case with some of us, that the more emotionally detached (in a healthy way!) from the world around us, the more we have the ability to apply our compassion universally and without prejudice or undue regard to personal self-interest. I don’t see being universally compassionate as expressing itself as being emotionally sad and thinking about everyone in the world all the time but simply being able to recognise the potential that everyone in the world that falls victim to war and environmental/natural disasters etc are deserving of our compassion and support regardless of their religion, culture, skin colour, race or political persuasion. Someone who believes that deeply will struggle to accept unbalanced and culturally biased responses to victims of wars and natural disasters or one-sided narratives on geo-political conflicts.

Obviously we are more emotionally attached to our nearest and dearest but again, imo, a level of detachment is required in personal relationships too or they become unhealthily codependent. Likewise, in order for mankind to survive in the longterm, a certain level of ‘detachment’ from one‘s Country’s own self-interest in negotiations, or one’s own Political self-interests is required (if we are to find alternative methods to war of resolving conflicts arising from competitive interests over natural resources, perceived threats to geographical boundaries or find political leaders who actually have an modicum of compassion for the people they were elected to lead - (but absolutely not dissociative or masked sociopathic forms of detachment like most of our contemporary political leaders seem to suffer from).

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

but charismatic Cameron.

 

[jcdenton08]

Now why did that nickname never catch on? This country.

 

[clapham_gull]

...any time Israel drops a bomb on a hospital there, at least half of NSC passionately celebrates)

You don't half talk some...

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Good grief. This thread has been ruined. One poster has an understandable (but in my view misplaced) issue with another and then a baying mob of yah-boo bullies surround the two, going 'fight! fight!', like all the fat and weak boys in the playground when we were kids.

But.....what.....what about......whatabout Jeremy Corbyn?

 

[Deleted member 37369]

Good grief. This thread has been ruined. One poster has an understandable (but in my view misplaced) issue with another and then a baying mob of yah-boo bullies surround the two, going 'fight! fight!', like all the fat and weak boys in the playground when we were kids.

But.....what.....what about......whatabout Jeremy Corbyn?

Quite! I’m lost … what thread is this supposed to be as they all seem very similar!

 

[LamieRobertson]

Good grief. This thread has been ruined. One poster has an understandable (but in my view misplaced) issue with another and then a baying mob of yah-boo bullies surround the two, going 'fight! fight!', like all the fat and weak boys in the playground when we were kids.

But.....what.....what about......whatabout Jeremy Corbyn?

Hasn’t it all been said?